I just peak-trans'd again!

Ask Stonewall. I would be genuinely interested in their answer

It's not even a tiny surprise to me that Stonewall include transvestic sexual fetishists in their definition of "transgender" and think women should STFU about it but it appears to be to you so I suggest you ask them?

Surgery and cross sex hormones change the appearance to that resembling the opposite sex. That's all. Someone with surgery, cross sex hormones remains a man, but an altered and feminine one.

Gametes are bimorphic indeed but multi-cellular humans are much more complex.

No they're not (apart from the tiny percentage of the population that is intersex). A human's sex is determined by the type of gamete their body type corresponds to. It's really that simple for over 99% of the population.

So are you claiming then that sex isn't dimorphic?

I'm not "claiming" anything. I'm making the same point as others. Natural human reproduction is sexually dimorphic. Are you trying to claim infertile people are a different sex? Do you have a third gamete up your sleeve?

Bees communicate via the medium of dance.

No messageboards or twitterspheres for them. No sirree.

We could learn a lot from them.

@GibbertyFlibbert: As soon as we start saying a trans woman isn't a woman because her body is this or not, who is next? Intersex women? Butch lesbians with loads of tattoos? It is a very slippery slope.

No, it's not. The definition is clear: if your body has produced, will produce in the future, or currently produces the motile gametes called "spermatzoa", you are a male. Man = adult human male. If you are a trans woman, you are still biologically a man. This is biology and is completely unrelated to how you look, behave, present, or feel.

For me it is easy: anyone willing to face society as a woman - with all the disadvantages that entails - by changing their driving licence, passport and bank account to female is a woman.

Except that they don't have all the disadvantages, do they? They won't faint at work from menstrual cramps. They won't travel to another country and pay hundreds of pounds for the IUS that will stop the menstrual cramps. They won't flood during menstruation and have to wash blood out of their clothes in the ladies loos. They won't endure pregnancy, nor maternity discrimination. They'll never have to take a pregnancy test after being raped. They'll never have an abortion, or a c-section, or a nightmarish childbirth. They'll never have mastitis. And judging by how the Labour and LibDem parties and universities are rushing to do what the trans lobby say, I'd suggest that they are still listened to as if they are men, if not more so.

"Surgery can't change your sex,"

Read the Corbett vs Corbett judgment. (Most trans people hate it BTW and it is definitely out of date - these days we allow gender reassignment so any test today would not be a one-off.) Sex is an assessment we make based on several factors. Surgery and hormones change a number of those - enough to change the balance of sex (in biological terms) from male to female or vice versa.

I'm with you on what you said Fermat, btw.

of course some will develop gender dysphoria and transition as they grow older.

Yes once they've got the male heterosexual bit of their lives out of their systems.

Gibberty the definition of female is OF the sex that can produce eggs or bear young.

A male who inverts his penis, is castrated or takes hormones, will not be of the female sex.

Even when males no longer produce sperm, they are still of the sex that can produce sperm.

I understand that this isnt pleasant for some to hear, but its also not pleasant to reduce the entire female anatomy down to a hole.

We are slightly more complicated than that.

"It's quite a, you know... specific paraphilia though don't you think? Quite logical why it would be included under that big old transumbrella. By Stonewall etc. No?"

Ask Stonewall. I would be genuinely interested in their answer

we have to classify the reproductive system after surgery as either male or female and female is obviously the better fit.
Appearance is not function, and a fuck-hole isn't the same as a female reproductive system, either partially or incompletely formed (else gay men would have been trying to birth babies out of their bums since forever!).

What you get after surgery is either a removed or an inverted part (for males anyway). As Germaine keeps saying, cutting off your penis doesn't make you a woman. Even inverting it doesn't do it either. It's surgically altered male genitalia (or would you describe chaps who do the whole body-mod split penis thing or the aborginal people they nicked it from as actual lizards?).

Surgery can't change your sex, it merely changes the appearance and possible functionality of your genitalia etc. Which may be extremely useful for those who suffer from dysphoria (and I hope it genuinely does because it is a terrible price to pay if you go through all that and it doesn't help! Unfortunately this isn't always the case, as detransitioners show. I'm sure they believed this nonsense about surgery as well before they went under the knife...........)

No, the reproductive system is still very much male, just an incomplete and non-functioning male system now. The balls are gone but the penis is still partially there (although inverted) and the chromosomes are still XY for your typical transwoman who does not have an intersex condition. So elements of a male system and still no elements of a female system (ie no XX chromosomes, no uterus, ovaries, fallopian tubes or vagina - although you have an approximation of a vagina it is actually an inverted penis and doesn't function in the same way as the female sex organ).

"Lol. Not having any exceptions due to sexual development problems are not required to define the male and female sex class. If you have a Y you are either a man or intersex. Either way you're not of the sex that can produce ova. You are of the sex that can produce sperm."

So are you claiming then that sex isn't dimorphic?

"Black eyed susan - incorrect - no such thing as a male /:female brain - the brains plasticity means from birth we are influenced by gender stereotypes ie baby boys are given soft balls to play with and girls soft dolls therefore we may develop more masc / femme type traits due to social.influences."

The evidence doesn't support your claim. To hide their gender variance a lot of trans people over-compensate. A good example is Jan Hamilton www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-535010/The-6ft-ex-soldier-won-personal-war--woman.html. I only met her once (during the period they were filming the documentary) but she is a very interesting person.

Anyway, people like Jan prove that the cause isn't socialisation.

Since everyone here insists that sex is dimorphic, we have to classify the reproductive system after surgery as either male or female and female is obviously the better fit.

No, Gibberty, that is just a load of utter tosh, it has been explained to you thousands of times why that is the case.

Ok could you explain how a transwoman gives birth please?

No the outliers prove that sex is not bimorphic

SMH

Do you believe that? Or are you pretending to believe it?

No. You are ducking the question. The definition needs to be robust so that there is clarity. So no exceptions please. I don't believe a comprehensive biological definition is possible, certainly not with severe prejudice against some women. Prove me wrong.

Lol. Not having any exceptions due to sexual development problems are not required to define the male and female sex class. If you have a Y you are either a man or intersex. Either way you're not of the sex that can produce ova. You are of the sex that can produce sperm.

A cartoon version of an incel MRA transactivist in Viz wouldn't be this obnoxious and wrong about everything.

really quite something, isn't it?

luna

No they dont

They believe that transmen (human females) are actually biological men (human males)

"Gibberty do you genuinely believe that transwomen have child birthing reproductive systems?"

Since everyone here insists that sex is dimorphic, we have to classify the reproductive system after surgery as either male or female and female is obviously the better fit.

Black eyed susan - incorrect - no such thing as a male /:female brain - the brains plasticity means from birth we are influenced by gender stereotypes ie baby boys are given soft balls to play with and girls soft dolls therefore we may develop more masc / femme type traits due to social.influences.

And you will see it is a paraphilia and therefore totally different to the issue of gender identity

It's quite a, you know... specific paraphilia though don't you think? Quite logical why it would be included under that big old transumbrella. By Stonewall etc. No?

For the pedants bimorphic is an alternative to dimorphic. en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/bimorphic