I just peak-trans'd again!

As soon as we start saying a trans woman isn't a woman because her body is this or not, who is next? Intersex women? Butch lesbians with loads of tattoos?

Lesbians ARE women. What’s being butch got to do with it? It’s about biology rather than gendered presentation.

Oh wait

That sounds rude

Its a naval term people...not a chat up line

Oooh now i like 'gender atheist'

And someone who does household chores in their pants

I like the cut if your jib berry

It's really very simple. Do we want a society in which some women are denied rights because their body doesn't conform to what other people think women should look like or do we accept that women get a choice?

As soon as we start saying a trans woman isn't a woman because her body is this or not, who is next? Intersex women? Butch lesbians with loads of tattoos? It is a very slippery slope. For me it is easy: anyone willing to face society as a woman - with all the disadvantages that entails - by changing their driving licence, passport and bank account to female is a woman. If she wants surgery, great. If she doesn't, also great. But I won't be party to saying a woman is not a woman because she chooses not to have surgery to conform.

This will all pass.

I’ve bought a phrenology head for my desk recently to remind me that pseudo science has a short lifespan, historically speaking.

Dinosaurs I see you regularly on these kinds of threads stating the 'transwomen are women' mantra and accusing those who reject this of hate speech. But there are a great many transwomen who acknowledge they aren't actually women- they believe that this denies their reality and life experiences. What right to you have to repeatedly misgender them?

Thanks for the welcome!

(Sorry for hijacking your thread OP, the one I intended to post on is now closed)

I feel so sad for the current teenage generation. When I was my son's age (early 90s) dozens of my male friends wore dresses and eyeliner (Kurt Cobain/Robert Smith inspired) and almost all of my female friends experimented with headshaving and army boot wearing (Tank Girl style) and everyone snogged everyone and no one gave a hoot about labels for sexuality etc.
Some of us grew up to be more heteronormative than others but the freedom to try stuff out without finger pointing or policing of each other's language or sexual preferences or presented image was wonderful.

Daimbars, lots of liberals automatically nod along with trans ideology because they see it as related to gay rights.

Peak trans is the moment when an event or new information - the Cotton Ceiling, TIM in women's sports, fex - produces such cognitive dissonance that the individual is brought up short and reassesses everything the trans lobby is pushing. From there to full on gender critical is a few steps.

Nice to meet you, Betty. FWR is a lovely place to hang out. One reason regulars continue to debate even the most tiresome proponents of trans ideology is lurkers. There are loads of women posting here who were turned on to the TRA agenda as lurkers and then, like you, came out as gender critical.

Peak Trans = The realisation that there is no way to reconcile the differences between those that define woman/man via biology and those that define it via performativity of social constructs.

You are entitled to your own unpleasant views but it's a bit rich to expect everyone else to tolerate them.

Oh Jesus wept at the irony of this statement.

Why is saying a transwoman isn't a woman hate speech? Surely it's a fact?

Had to laugh at the appropriate advert pop up here on the thread. If only others could think male and female were the only two options still!

Hello!

New user - my son is currently studying for A level and being on the spectrum, comes home with a lot of questions about things he sees as very black/white yes/no that his peers see quite differently, thus perplexing him greatly.

Recently, there has been a lot of talk about trans related stuff amongst his peers and he's been coming home really confused as to why he keeps getting told off for stating biological facts (by other teens).

I'm a pretty laid back parent, liberal arts background, I read 'Gender Trouble' at university and have a few trans folk in my wider social circle so I thought I could clear it all up for him pretty easily by explaining the difference between biological sex and socially constructed gender and pointing out that it's fine for people to live however they choose without making a big deal out of it etc.

I'm pretty GNC anyway (the last time he brought a girlfriend home to meet me I was smashing up a chest of drawers with a hammer, wearing only granny pants and a bra, which is embarrassing enough by teen boy standards, so my almost completely tattooed body was just a bonus. But I digress) so I was somewhat surprised he was so perplexed, but then it became apparent that the position he was being told off for holding, was the position he had learned from me anyway.

So, off I toddled to ask Uncle Google about it all and that resulted in a few weeks of lurking here and on Reddit. Up until this week I was still pretty live and let live about it all, trying to figure out if there was a middle ground to be found between those who defined their woman-ism by their biology (as I do) and those that defined it via their preferred performed gender (as some of my social circle do). I'm a bit of a political Pollyanna, you see...

Anyway, that's all over. I've been peak transed, right here, on Mumsnet. Specifically on the biology teaching in schools thread, the Connecticut state championship thread and the misgendering thread.

Daimbars, Rosesandflowers and GibbertyFlibbert, I can only assume you are Ali G styled ironic caricatures designed to induce rampant terfism into the hearts of previously nonplussed women like me.

Obviously identity politics is catching because I'm wondering if I should identify as a Terf (and cut myself some "Terfbangs" to indicate it) but I'm not sure if I actually qualify as Rad Fem* enough, so I am going with 'Gender Atheist' for now.

(And if I were, I'd be more PERF than TERF, because it's penii/men's biology in women's spaces I have an objection to, really, I think).

Thanks for the enlightening chats, Mumsnet. I wonder how many lurkers are out there, being similarly peaked, right now?

What really gets me about all this isn't that people have different views. It's that one side can't tolerate being disagreed with. It would be extremely foolish of me to have a phobia of trans people, since the only time a trans person has done me any harm was that time my friend Tafkas fed me lots of limoncello when DH was off on his stag night. But if I say "Well, of course Tafkas has still got male physiology in some respects" then I'm going to be called "transphobe!" threatened and silenced.
Look Daimbars, I was really struck by your comment somewhere or other that you "hate injustice." That's great. I do, too. But, honestly, there's a mid-point between "I agree with you completely" and "You are a terrible, horrific person who deserves to be beaten and silenced for thinking what you think!"
That mid-point's a really important element of civilisation, Daim, and we all practise it. Non-Muslims practice it when we don't go round ripping headscarves off Muslim women. People on their way to hear the Manchester Symphony Orchestra practice it when they don't go down to the Arena first to beat up all the pop fans. And, to the best of my knowledge, there has never been a punch-up on Any Questions (although there have been times when it looked like it might go that way)
Climate change is a greater threat to mankind than gender issues, but I have never heard of a climate scientist who shied away from discussing his or her opinions on the matter. I once talked to a climate scientist who had debated the issue with Nigel Lawson three times. Doubtless he would rather Lawson didn't believe what he believes, but his response was not to say "How dare you!" but to explain why Lawson was wrong.
I've had people say "I have no words!" to me in the past, when I've said that I Don't Believe In Gender. I'm inclined to believe them. Maybe that's why they don't want the gender critical to have words, either.

Dinosaurs, if saying that TIM are male is transphobic the term has become so meaningless no one's going to give a flying fuck about being accused of transphobia.

Transphobia is when a trans person gets badly treated specifically for being trans. Recognizing biological fact doesn't qualify.

Yes. @dinosaursandtea and @daimbars, don't stay where you are not wanted. If you are only here to smear the other posters and call them names, then please follow your own advice.

This is the feminist chat group not the harass the feminists chat group.

Bye bye @dinosaursandtea and @daimbars, off you go.

A feminist chat group is a place for feminists to chat. Since when has feminism only been about trans bashing and peak transing.

Don’t stay where you’re not wanted.

If only some of our most persistently offended posters would take their own advice. 🤷‍♂️

Yes. @dinosaursandtea and @daimbars, don't stay where you are not wanted. If you are only here to smear the other posters and call them names, then please follow your own advice.

This is the feminist chat group not the harass the feminists chat group.

Presumably it was the rules of the Facebook group? You are entitled to your own unpleasant views but it's a bit rich to expect everyone else to tolerate them.

LOL at mumsnet being one of the “few places on the Internet that tolerates transphobia, hate speech blah blah”. (Proper belly laughed at that, so thank you.)

If you actually see any posts that are transphobic, please do report them. MN has moderation and will respond to you.

Also, you know the Internet is a really, really big place don’t you? It’s not just Mumsnet and The British Hedgehog Society. (As much as we would all love that).

Get thee to a Football forum for half an hour, then come on back and tell us all about it.

Don’t stay where you’re not wanted.

Aaaaarrrrrggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.