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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How do you cope with very unfeminist views in your proximity?

35 replies

Justrunwithit · 10/06/2018 22:09

I have always been very live and let live in my views since I come from an area where conflict has been rife and so have always tried to be tolerant. But now I have an au pair (not because we are posh, or because we are exploitative, it’s a very good gig!) who is from a very narrow, patriarchal religious background and I’m finding it hard to cope. Much harder than I thought!!! E.g. her church thinks that we should all be in mourning, as they are, for the repeal of the eighth amendment in Ireland. Women are child-havers and homeschoolers, men are the head of the church and family etc. No secular education or college or anything. Against gay marriage. Basically critical thought against what the menz tell you is bad.

What gentle reading would you suggest to challenge and provoke thought? Have also asked this on the reading thread? I guess I feel like it’s not my place to say her beliefs are wrong, just as I’d be outraged if she told me mine were, but we are discussing reading quite a lot and I’d like some good but introductory books that suggest that equality and bodily autonomy can be a thing?

NB I have done a lot of Christian reading in my time and attended a heavily Christian school and have signed up to read some Christian novels so it’s not that I am just like ‘you are wrong. Here’s why.’ Although I’m sure that’s what we both secretly think!

Although she is very sweet and didn’t challenge at all my diatribe re the repeal the 8th campaign when she asked me what I thought. I only know HOW against it her church is because I looked at their website and was like Shock Shock Shock #gilead

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RadicalFern · 12/06/2018 11:04

I'd second Jane Eyre, because Jane is a wonderful character - kind but also strong and principled - she won't let Mr Rochester make her into an angel, or marry St John just for convenience and because he would like a wife.

Also, I think if anything that your personal example and family dynamic would be more of an influence than anything else. If she comes from a Christian patriarchy background, she won't be used to anyone caring what she thinks about things (because it doesn't matter, because she's a woman), so you (and DP if there is one) taking an interest in her thoughts - not necessarily on controversial topics - might make a lot of difference. See what music she likes? She also might have been told that feminism makes women hate their children - you can show her that's not true! I think in this situation love will work better than conflict...

Waddlelikeapenguin · 11/06/2018 16:02

Justrunwithit
it is really hard clinging to this pedestal I tell you
Grin i have faith in you

BertrandRussell · 11/06/2018 09:24

How about watching Rachel Parris’s A Girl’s Guide to TV together?

UpstartCrow · 11/06/2018 09:10

I thought of those because they seem a more gentle introduction to someone from a religious background.

I found a download for The Red Tent, (and this site has other women's books as well including Backlash);
oceanofpdf.com/pdf-epub-the-red-tent-download/

LangCleg · 11/06/2018 09:06

The idea of a whole pile of books is a good one, that way you're not pushing anything on her that she may not be interested in or ready for. Just give her a whole pile and let her work her way through it at her own pace based on what appeals.

Yes, I agree with AAK and others who have suggested this.

If you have some, try some historical biographies that she might find interesting - in those, the subtle explanations of how women in history managed to gain influence and respect might get her thinking without being too didactic? Someone like Alison Weir?

BertrandRussell · 11/06/2018 08:27

"How about a novel such as The Women's Room by Marilyn French?
The Red Tent.
Or Mary Beard - Women and Power."
I was going to suggest these three!

On a more general point- I find that now I am in the Crone zone, I have far fewer inhibitions about speaking out for women. I have nothing to lose-I no longer have to be diplomatic for work related reasons, my children are too old to be embarrassed, I know who my friends are and I don't need any more- so I think it is partly my responsibility to take the flak.

Bowlofbabelfish · 11/06/2018 08:18

What annandale said about teaching her that her opinion is important and debating is really true. I know she’s asked you, but there is still that dynamic of employee/er so you need to be careful that this isn’t hectoring in any way.

I do think that both Jane Eyre and Pride and Prejudice are worth a read or a watch (the BBC version of the latter remains a joy.) Both authors are making points about how limited women’s choices are and how society is unfair to women - so yes, Elizabeth bennet marries in the end, but the meat of it is in Austen’s scathing takedown of society before that point. The way Charlotte Lucas’ choices are constrained I’ve always thought particularly tragic. But even lady Catherine has a learning point - you could talk about how tropes like the awful matriarch is because women had so little power in society that they could only oppress their own families. There’s a lot in P and P to both enjoy and learn from I think. Ditto Jane eyre - it’s the setting as much as the end point that’s the learning point.

How about some Ursula Le Guin? Tombs of Atuan is short and disturbing. Left hand of darkness is brilliant. Anything by Octavia Butler.

AngryAttackKittens · 11/06/2018 02:22

The idea of a whole pile of books is a good one, that way you're not pushing anything on her that she may not be interested in or ready for. Just give her a whole pile and let her work her way through it at her own pace based on what appeals.

LassWiADelicateAir · 11/06/2018 01:16

I think Jane Eyre and Rebecca are terrible choices- heroine remains in awe of and forgives criminal bullies. If you want a du Maurier My Cousin Rachel is a better choice.

You might try good young adult fiction. Frances Hardinge The Lie Tree has terrific female characters and the heroine realises by the end just exactly what her mother had to put up with from the heroine's adored (but actually vile) father. The fantasy element of the lie tree works as fantasy and allegory. There is a beautiful version illustrated by Chris Riddell.

Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere has a feisty heroine in the Lady Dor and indeed the charismatic female Hunter who betrays her.

Cold Comfort Farm is very funny and Flora Poste is delightful.

0lwen · 11/06/2018 00:29

What about Red Clocks!

I have that on my shelf, it's only now that the Yes vote was passed 2 to 1 that I can bring myself to read it.

0lwen · 11/06/2018 00:26

She'd hate the power! I'm feminist and I wanted to like it but when the gang of marauding women rape a man I got turned off. I wanted to read a book where the balance of power is in favour of women instead. I didn't want to read a book where women abuse men instaed of the other way around. It was a good book but ........... maybe it would turn her off feminism and it's important not to do that.

I wouldn't be able to resist asking her questions like 'do you think people who are anti-abortion do enough to make society an easy place to bring an unplanned baby in to' and do you think it is women or men who bear the shame / blame of pregnancy? what could religious people do, do you think, to make an unplanned pregnancy easier? do they do that do you think? do you think the financial sacrifices of parenthood are shared equally by mothers and fathers?

I wouldnt' be able to resist asking her these questions. Maybe not all at once though.

Justrunwithit · 11/06/2018 00:22

waddle good idea.

Yes I have thought of that angle! I hope that I would (be the change etc). However it is really hard clinging to this pedestal I tell you Wink.

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powershowerforanhour · 11/06/2018 00:16

Actually waddle has the best idea. Just let her help herself to all sorts. That's what I did as a child/young teenager.

powershowerforanhour · 11/06/2018 00:14

Those verses out of Timothy used to make me very indignant as a child! They are probably my earliest memories of sexism (been reading that thread).

Waddlelikeapenguin · 11/06/2018 00:13

Personally I would offer her a pile of books for her room or tell her to help herself to x bookshelf & make sure that pile/shelf is a good mix.
I think watching your life/choices you make is likely to have a far greater impact than you trying to push her towards particular books. Be the change you want to see etc Grin

powershowerforanhour · 11/06/2018 00:10

How about "Fatal Decision: Edith Cavell WWI nurse". V religious and stonkingly brave woman.

Justrunwithit · 11/06/2018 00:05

Timothy Shock was that for my education?! Although I note we both wear pearls so it’s game over, clearly.

bewilderness thank you, that is nice of you. I think I wrote badly and sounded like I was trying to foist it onto her. Plus I did say something disrespectful about her religion, so fair enough to be called out.

Hunger games is a brilliant suggestion!

The whole situation has made me wonder about tolerance and how it works.

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thebewilderness · 10/06/2018 23:58

No need to apologize, OP. You're patronage is what was requested, and so you can hardly help but but sound like what you are providing.

I suggest you give her the Hunger Games novels to start.

Justrunwithit · 10/06/2018 23:56

Have just googled ‘difference between suffragette and suffragist’.

Off to google Timothy.

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Justrunwithit · 10/06/2018 23:55

annandale those are great suggestions, thank you, a couple of them I haven’t read.

Going to reread The Color Purple now, it’s 20 years since I read it and I remember reading it in one sitting. But it goes back to what I was trying to say kind of badly at the beginning - given it has gay themes etc, is it too confrontational to suggest that when I know that those are themes that her religion is explicitly and openly against? When really I am perfectly able to put together a list of very good reads that don’t contain anything challenging?

Repeal the 8th is the first time I broke my lifelong policy of never commenting on political issues in public. I was very upset by attitudes flushed out by the Ulster rape case and felt I had to stand up and be counted, which felt very uncomfortable. I suppose what I am debating is do I go back to my safe space of being neutral and non-committal, or do I say, these are books that were very eye-opening and thought-provoking for me at your stage, or this is something that was recommended to me about women, take it/don’t take it as you feel fit.

Do you think that’s the answer, the next time she asks just say, ‘what kind of read are you looking for, something fun and nice or something that might be more challenging?’

upstart, thanks to you too, I have never read either The Women’s Room or The Red Tent, OR Women and Power although I have had the last one on my list for a while so all these suggestions are good for me at least!

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powershowerforanhour · 10/06/2018 23:51

1 Timothy 2:11-12
then the Mary Beard book (or online lecture, it may be a TED talk) about women and muthos
proves that point from Ecclesiastes that "there is nothing new under the sun".
Actually the book of Ecclesiastes itself is worth a read. It's the best bit of the whole lot IMO.

AngryAttackKittens · 10/06/2018 23:46

Agree with The Color Purple as a recommendation, which could be eye opening in all kinds of ways while still being clearly rooted in a viewpoint that won't come across as being opposed to Christianity. Jane Eyre is a good one too.

UpstartCrow · 10/06/2018 23:40

I don't think of The Power as a feminist book.

How about a novel such as The Women's Room by Marilyn French?
The Red Tent.
Or Mary Beard - Women and Power.

powershowerforanhour · 10/06/2018 23:38

Reckon so, OP. I am friends with the women from the baby group I attended when my daughter was tiny. It was in a church hall and I think all the other mums are regular churchgoers. I'm the only heathen (brought up Presbyterian though and went to Sunday school every week till I was about 14). At least two of them changed their FB profiles to include the "Love Both" overlay a few weeks back...I'm definitely more a "Together For Yes" type of gal. (I have a sneaking suspicion that one or two of the others may be as well, church and all). We don't talk about it. They liked my Processions 2018 photos. Perhaps a suffragettes vs suffragists discussion is in order. I think I would have been a suffragist.

annandale · 10/06/2018 23:34

I think Jane Eyre is a genius call. Maybe the Tenant of Wildfell Hall, South Riding, the Bluest Eye, the Color Purple?

I would have thought the most subversive thing you could do (in a good way) is to ask her opinion on these books and encourage her to argue her case, whether you agree with it or not. Teach her that debating is something you are really open to and that her opinion is worth hearing.

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