Male colleague - views on changing name

I truly believe that smashing the patriarchy starts at home, with our individual actions. When my husband fails to do his share of housework, that is because he is conditioned by the patriarchy to think that someone else will/should do it for him. If I don't pull him up on this our kids will also have this impression about male/female roles. You would have to have a heart of stone not to cut somebody who was abandoned as a child some slack though!

I really feel very strongly that women do not have to justify these choices to people like the man in the OP, or to other women who believe there are such a thing as ‘feminist choices’ re marriage, names, relationships.

If you understand from the beginning that women have to negotiate various deals in order to survive and thrive within a patriarchal system then there really is no need for women to be held accountable for where they have drawn these lines in their own personal lives.

Hold the bloody system accountable for making it so that a woman’s life is one long negotiation with various men and the state over in what ways it is legitimate for her to exist.

Is it a really that specific or is it simply an example of what has been said before; that women may want to dissociate from FOO or identify into a husband’s family? Surely people must understand this is actually quite a common thing?

As I said, all women make these choices within the context of patriarchy and I dislike the judging of ‘my choice = the feminist choice’ Your choice is likely to be the one you thought was best for you at the time based on your personal values and position.

These choices cannot be feminist choices because they are about individuals negotiating their place in a patriarchal society. One which, no matter what you personally choose to do, has a patrilineal surname heritage and practice.

Sailing I posted at the same time as you, before I had read your story. What I said was not in response to you, that does sound like quite a specific circumstance.

I think he was being rude, and I highly doubt he is a 'better feminist' than you, but I still think women who change their names and claim it's a free choice are deluding themselves. I would NEVER have changed my name to a man's. Never.

Isn't it more about family making than anything else? You take on the family name of the family you are currently a part of, if you want to. If not you keep the family name of the family you grew up in or create a new name

That contradicts the view by some here that all names are just men's names- although it is a concession that a woman might own her own name. I married my husband - I did not become part of his family. It never occurred to me to give up my name.

Alternatives to "Maiden name": birth name, surname at birth, original name, former name.

If a feminist on here can't be arsed to type whatever the words are need[ed] to type to put it in non-patriarchal language what is the prospect of people who have no interest in avoiding sexist and outdated language being arsed?

Women’s choices are all negotiations for a better deal for themselves as individuals living under patriarchy even without awareness or acceptance re that being what is going on. To think that choices at the individual level re marriage or names can be ‘feminist’ or ‘anti-feminist’ or ‘not feminist’ is verging on the ridiculous IMO.

But actually, in reality, that is how things actually are in the UK. Surnames have been passed down to us through men. All the surnames. They have been passed down through men. The reason it is expected that women take a husband’s name and that children have their father’s name is because we live in a patriarchy.

If you are going to argue that a woman’s surname is her own name because it is her name then you have to also accept some will feel that when they have taken their husband’s name it becomes their name because they have chosen it to be their name. Both of those things totally fail to deal with the fact that all these things are women trying to negotiate a ‘deal’ with a patriarchal system that results in a better outcome for them as individuals.

It’s a circular argument that does very little in terms of dealing with patriarchy except to create a system of judgement re individual choices which actually actively keeps women down IMO. Anyone who honestly believes taking on the mantle of feminist activism involves telling another woman she has to make certain choices is as bad as those who think any choice a woman makes is a feminist one.

Anyone honestly think patriarchy gives a fuck what surname you have as an individual? Or do you understand that patriarchal systems adjust the ways they oppress women in response to women attempting to make changes like this?

It’s not a feminist choice to change your name upon marriage.
That doesn’t say you are a “good” or “bad” feminist but there wasn’t anything feminist about that particular decision.
I’d think that, but I wouldn’t be an arse like your colleague and say it. I wonder what his motives were.

“Scrutinising individual women and then saying they are "good feminists" "bad feminists" or "not feminists" gets us nowhere. It's exactly what the man in the OP did”

There is a significant difference between the above, and saying that a particular choice a woman has made is an anti feminist one. It is baffling that people find this hard to grasp. Being a feminist does not mean having to agree with and support everything that other women do. It is more nuanced and complex than that.

Have bigger fish to fry than arguing retaining the name your father gave you is inherently more feminist than taking the one your husband has.

Oh so your husband has his own name, but yours is your father's?

With bonus side order of "having more important things to worry about" because literally no one else does...

I just couldn't be arsed to type whatever the words are I need to type to put it in non-patriarchal language.

I don't think I'm actually that bothered about this hence not really putting in the effort.

Chances are I will never marry and will die childless. Currently hoping that comes sooner rather than later. Have bigger fish to fry than arguing retaining the name your father gave you is inherently more feminist than taking the one your husband has.

Isn't it more about family making than anything else? You take on the family name of the family you are currently a part of, if you want to. If not you keep the family name of the family you grew up in or create a new name.

My sister is just getting divorced. I don't know if she'll revert to her maiden name but kids will retain father's name so I don't know. It's messy

"Revert to her maiden name?"

You have a long way to go in dismantling the patriarchy if you are still referring to "maiden name"

Ha! Just realised I already have one... I meant something slightly more imaginative.

Cisters Moon-Star-River-Mountain

Not defeated Lass. Just pointing out that we don't all have special unique surnames; and us women don't have special female surnames created for us at birth. We mostly take our father's name or even if it's mother's maiden name, that'll be her father's name. They've come from somewhere in the first place - and 99 time's out of a hundred, from a male line.

I don't particularly like my surname. I've never married. If I marry then I would look at all the options, including double barrelling and choose the option that I liked the sound of most/ felt most meaningful.

Similarly if I ever have kids... If I have kids while I'm single then they'll have my name but if I'm coupled then it depends what we both decide to do.

My sister is just getting divorced. I don't know if she'll revert to her maiden name but kids will retain father's name so I don't know. It's messy.

Maybe my tongue in cheek suggestion earlier of us all choosing our own names at 18 wasn't a bad idea.

I fancy a nature name...

if you dont take your husbands name, in most cases youre still keeping your fathers name rather than your mothers name, and your grandfathers rather than your grandmothers.

The whole concept of surnames in this society is already patriarchal because its a patriarchal society. I hope it dies a death.

I wish we were able to move past being ‘disappointed’ in other women for making different determinations re negotiation of life under a patriarchy.

I don’t think you can focus on individual choices without ending up with hierarchies of oppression TBH.

Individual choices are all made under patriarchal systems. Some we see and consider, others we don’t see and don’t understand. It’s still there whether we see it or not and many of the people patting themselves on the back for making the choice to marry but to keep their birth name are as blind to the dynamics as those blindly following traditions IMO.

Fwiw I agree with your colleague, but wouldn't tell you

If I married, I would keep my own name. Taking your husband’s name is patriarchal & anachronistic. If my husband-to-be objected to this, we wouldn’t be getting married.

If my sister or friend who called herself a feminist took her husband’s name, I obviously wouldn’t say anything or make my views known in any way because it’s her choice, but I would be disappointed.

"I agree re gay marriage that it is negotiating access to the systems of oppression rather than dismantling them."

Much more succinct than my version!

Bollocks, my name is mine to exactly the same extent that my husband's is his. Since our births.

Yy that’s my point.

I meant really that for the individual choicers surely not getting married in the first place is more of a priority than getting married but keeping your birth surname.

I think re marriage and names it needs to be recognised that women are negotiating their individual lives within a system of patriarchy.

I agree re gay marriage that it is negotiating access to the systems of oppression rather than dismantling them.

For marriage to be dismantled many things, including distribution of wealth and resources would need to change and yes increased divorces and increasing numbers of people living together without getting married is again, not doing much to dismantle the oppressive system as it is being harnessed.

Marriage itself yes is the major patriarchal institution here and the names, walking up aisle, whatever all come from that. But we are not allowed civil partnerships and going without the protections conferred by marriage fucks women over as well...

Marriage has been dismantled to an extent - insofar as lots of couples don't get married, and go on to have children, and then many split up, and the woman and the children are often stuffed.

So the dismantling of marriage - in the way it is happening - is highly beneficial to men (surprise surrprise) - at least from a financial / freedom perspective, obviously some would argue that men suffer as generally they end up losing a lot of time with children, again there's no easy answer to this in the context of the nuclear family unit thing that we have adopted.

What we mean is that we want society to change / marriage dismantled in a way that is better all round including for kids and removing the patriarchal baggage / expectations (etc lots if different things to aim for here) not just dismantling marriage IYSWIM.

Side note: Read a thing recently about gay marriage with a older activist feeling sad that in their day there was a lot of fighting societal norms and so forth, and now lots of battles are won lots of gay people want to adopt into the existing framework rather than fighting stuff. Their opinion obviously but it's interesting. Many people only fight when it's something they have a personal stake in. Lots of poeple want to / or do fit into the structures that we have. I suppose lots of people are happy with the way things are. In that sense we are all square pegs in round holes seeing it as obvious that the hole is the wrong shape but lots of people are round and happy and are baffled by people saying it's self evdient the holes are wrong... Think that analogy has run out of steam now!