Male colleague - views on changing name

Probably close to zero. Which kind of proves the point I’m trying to make about creating hierarchies and negotiations with patriarchy.

Women’s choices re this stuff involve negotiations with patriarchy and are made on the basis of ‘what will be best for me in my circumstances’ or ‘what I can reasonably achieve for me’.

In these conditions no choice can really be an objectively feminist choice but choices can be made with reference to feminist values which is a different thing.

If we are going to be really hardcore re the hierarchies of feminist choice we’d all be political separatist lesbians with no DC wouldn’t we?

The reason we aren’t is because we all have these negotiations with reference to our own personal circumstances and therefore we all draw our lines in different places. We shouldn’t be expecting other women to live how we decide they should based on where we draw our lines IMO.

Now, how many married women reading this thread both (1) kept their birth surname AND (2) gave their children that same surname without any double-barrelling of the husband's name?

Not many, I'd wager.

Men get over the wife not taking their name pretty quickly.

The real fight is, married or not, giving the children YOU grew YOUR name.

That's permanent change and also where you'll find the real resistance from men.

*want

Yes it would. But no-one is starting any kind of collective action when they say ‘the choice you have already made is not objectively feminist’ they are simply sitting in judgement regarding another woman’s choice which has already been made. I don’t see anyone starting any kind of collective action or movement around getting married but keeping a birth name or articulating why or how it effects any kind of meaningful change to the material conditions of all women in the UK.

Re this particular issue though what exactly would it change? Women keeping birth names, which we all have as a result of patrilineal naming practices, which would affect patriarchy how exactly? At best it’s cow towing to marriage but doing it with a small ‘fuck you’ which achieves very little and can have negative consequences for women.

In reality women still depend on marriage for economic insecurity and many still need or what to signal belonging to the man they marry for various reasons. Women’s material conditions still depend, to a large degree, on the benevolence of individual men or the benevolence of the state.

An individual choice is only effective in changing things for women if it is part of a collective action

Yes so if the majority of women refused to change their name, it would have more of an impact than the minority who currently take this stand.

Of course I agree with the personal is political, or what I take that to mean - that the material reality of women’s lives, which are largely confined to what is considered the private sphere and have traditionally been considered ‘private family matters’, is a political issue. I do not agree that the political is personal, which is what ‘objectively feminist’ individual choices is trying to do. It is simply another side to the Pomo stuff of woman choosing = feminist choice. Rather than saying anything a woman does is feminism it is saying women can change things via individual choices.

I do not believe this is true. An individual choice is only effective in changing things for women if it is part of a collective action. Even then collective action should be targeted in the right way and at the right things or it will fail to be effective.

My husband’s surname is english. My maiden name is irish. We live in england. I hated my name growing up as nobody could spell it. I wanted to change it. If i got divorced and remarried i would keep it though.

Nobody expected me to change my name.

the personal is political

Thanks Bertrand. Our foremothers knew what was what.

Well no, she said she was a feminist, she supports women to make their own choices and that taking her husband’s name was her choice.

She did not claim her choice was ‘her choice as a feminist’ or that taking a husband’s name is a feminist choice.

I still maintain that there are only negotiations with patriarchy for women making individual choices about their private lives.

If you feel more comfortable with keeping a birth surname that’s about your own negotiation with patriarchy, it doesn’t make it an objectively feminist choice.

But I am old school and believe very strongly that the personal is political. I don't think we can sit round whining about the patriarchy and the evils of patrilineal traditions and not our our money where our mouths are.

The OP said that changing her name was her choice as a feminist. I have huge issues with this. I also have huge issues with the man concerned engaging with her in this way and saying that he was a better feminist.

ok offred

Yes, lass’ post was number six but I wasn’t singling lass out. I was commenting on how the discussion developed from that post with a number of people making comments regarding women’s private choices in feminism chat.

How it developed from being about one arsehole man into being about how the arsehole man was ideologically correct and the op’s choice was non-feminist.

It’s not about lass and I don’t know or think it is important in any way whether lass would call herself a feminist or not.

Just for being personal at work or also because the accountability of women in general to society or feminism for their personal and private decisions,

2nd one for me

I still say he is a twat and a bellend

lass is not a feminist...was she number 6?

It was only the 6th post when it started descending into the discussion re choices being objectively feminist/non feminist and women being accountable to feminism for their personal choices about their private lives.

Why people thought he was being an arsehole is quite important IMO. Just for being personal at work or also because the accountability of women in general to society or feminism for their personal and private decisions, which I see as negotiations with patriarchy rather than individual choices? That reflects one of the dynamics I commonly see re women and men in patriarchy- men are individually responsible for themselves (and often not even that), women are individually responsible for everyone and everything and accountable to everyone.

I think it’s deeply unhelpful

But there was a unanimous “he’s an arsehole” response to the OP.

I’m not meaning to move the goalposts so much as to bring the thread back from abstract discussion re how feminists ‘should’ live to the original post by the OP!

“A man who co-opted feminism and his own supposed ‘feminist status’ in order to put a woman down for her own personal and private choices which are a. None of his business and b. Nothing to do with work”

Absolutely. I think everyone agrees with that. You’re moving the goal posts a bit now!

You could drop a sexual harassment in the workplace pamphlet on his desk if you want to watch him deflate.

He needs to seriously fucking fuck off.

I took my husband’s name because it was a good moment to distance myself from my dad’s name. I’ve never felt the need to explain that to anyone at work, as it’s none of their business.

Tell him he’s a troll and you’ll have him for entirely inappropriate behaviour. He has no right to make you feel uncomfortable about the very personal decision you make regarding your relationship and your name.

This was not a thread discussing in the abstract how individual choices regarding men or relationships or marriage or how collective action involving co-ordinated individual choices can help to dismantle patriarchal structures/culture/institutions... it was one woman describing an unsettling experience of male dominance behaviour at work.

A man who co-opted feminism and his own supposed ‘feminist status’ in order to put a woman down for her own personal and private choices which are a. None of his business and b. Nothing to do with work.

And feminists on here almost exclusively responded by continuing his argument for him.

your maiden name is just your fathers name, his property. I say just chose the nicer name. It's fine to be a Ms Miss Mrs.... I remember my dad banging on about women with Ms as if it was single handedly going to bring down the entire establishment. I am still waiting ;)

No I’m saying it is essentially feminism employing tools of patriarchal oppression when it assumes a mantle of judging individual and private decisions of women living under a patriarchy as ‘objectively feminist/non-feminist’.

If you would like to make those determinations subjectively re yourself that is a different matter but when you apply them to other women via ‘objectively’ is when it becomes a problem, an IMO doing that is actually performing the work of patriarchy TBH.

As we have seen on this thread re a woman who experienced a man who tried to dominate her by shaming her due to her personal and private choices not living up to supposed ‘objective’ standards and then a thread where a number of feminists continued that same shaming until she explained her personal decision making process and then got a response saying ‘oh actually that’s ok, you can be an exception’