How accurately do humans identify biological sex?

Fair enough explanation, OW.

Terfsup - I think Hudson put on weight in prison and stopped the bleached hair, and as a result looks more like their mother.

(Am reminded of the Oscar Wilde quote about all women turning into their mother, which is their tragedy, men seldom turn into their mother, which is their's!)

I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of truly androgenous people I have met over my life: I've met butch women who look very masculine until you see them move or speak, and effeminate men who could make a decent fist of passing if they wanted until they move or speak. The trans people I've met (knowingly) have all been obviously trans

I'm not sure scientific studies are needed. It'd be one of those "Oh look scientists have discovered that humans need water" moments

Yeah i think this too.

I also agree with others that in kids it would not be noticeable but from puberty onwards, I think most people can distinguish between the sexes fairly accurately regardless of what the person was wearing and such. I cannot see any studies actually ever being done on this, as its a no brainer.

Browsing Instagram recently, I saw a Twitter thread of MB's saying they'd been on a photo shoot when a group of guys started at first to cat call MB then spotted MB was trans and started insulting MB. I'm not on Twitter and didn't check if it was genuine but it seems like there may be a lot of truth in the idea that its easier to create a certain impression in a photo than irl.

It’s called “uncanny valley” and is usually used to express the disquiet experienced faced with e.g. extremely human like robots or gorillas when they use human expressions.

The uncanny is a major trope in Gothic fiction spilling over into later related forms like horror films. So things that are nearly human - dolls, manequins, ventriloquists' dummies, vampires, frankenstein's monster, zombies and sometimes - although obviously these things ARE human - small children, babies, mad people.

I don't think androgyny is at all common. I said this on another thread the other day I've maybe been completely unsure about someone's sex once or twice.

The person in the first photo looks like Hudson's mother.

Re the photo posted upthread of MB - of course a single, posed and professionally lit (possibly edited) photo is going to look flattering. Look at this photo of Tara Hudson to see someone who looks female at first glance.

Now look at this photo taken when Hudson was attending court (that's Hudson's mother on the left). Much more obvious that Hudson is a transwoman when seen next to someone else, particularly if the other person is female.

Hand / feet size is the usual give away for transwomen. Ditto Adam's apple (or neck scarf to cover it). Then add in height and gait and any doubt is usually cleared up very quickly

Babies know the difference between men and women, as do young children and animals. Why wouldn't adult humans be able to tell the difference too? (I think with children it's more often a lack of language skills that leads to he instead of she, in the same way that they might refer to themselves in the third person, or say "me go outside" not "I")

I agree its a lot about body language. In my last job I took the Piccadilly line home and, I don't know why but, I'd quite often see an mtf person in my compartment.

They always seemed quite nervous. Most people would be slouching and scrolling on their phone but these trans people would be quite stiff, scanning round to see if anyone was looking at them. Size of hands and feet would confirm it but it was always the weird, un-relaxed body language I noticed first.

Reading the thread one could get the impression that humans have a pretty good inbuilt ability to distinguish between the sexes that then gets degraded by people learning the rules of gender.

This is going back a few decades but I had a university friend who did a study for her PhD on the ability of young babies to distinguish the sex of other babies. And yes, basically babies were really good at it. It's body language that's the giveaway.

But we know Bergdoff is a transwoman Supermatch

This is the face of a woman, an adult human female.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_Angelou

Who interesting shared a husband with Germaine Greer.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germaine_Greer

Come to Manchester Lass.

There are many transwomen out and about on a Saturday and Sunday.

They are ostensibly men doing a parody of a woman. Mind you they don't at all threaten me in any way.

Munroe Bergdoff is not media savvy at all.

The biology, muscles and bones of women are different to men, women and men move differently. Padding or cosmetic surgery may help men fool other men, the motion of the walking body especially makes it hard to fool people. Either TIMs walk like a man or they do an exaggerated hip swing, neither are the walk of a woman.

No man can mimic the movement of a woman. A man may fool a porn soaked man, it doesn't work with women, we have sight, hearing, smell and a gut feeling.

Women are scared of men so are polite to their face.

A static picture is interesting, because so much of what humans rely on is movement based.

I can tell if it’s DH walking towards me from a distance far, far before my eyesight can resolve his features or what he’s wearing - it’s the pattern that’s processed by the brain.

Ditto things like makeup contouring - I forget which ‘sleb it was (might have been a kardashian) but there was a clip of them posing for a photo with the contoured makeup on, and then of them chatting to the camera as well - what looks striking in static looks very peculiar when it’s moving.

When MB speaks, there is no doubt they are Male.

I’m interested in the viewpoint that a man aping the shell of a woman effectively is more woman than one who just says they are a woman. Neither are a woman - I thought it was rather distasteful to talk about how well someone passed, as it was upsetting to the individual.

Or does that only work one way? If a person passes fairly well it’s an argument that they’re a woman, and if they don’t the shut up you nasty feminists?

I love how the final word is supposed to be whether we can identify sex in humans from still photographs. When, just about all of the interactions that matter are interactions in person.

It's instagram/port culture isn't it?

Life has tipped over into nearly 100% 2D managed imagery for so many people they are forgetting the 3D reality in which we live.
Staging 2D images of everything,
photoshopping 2D images of everything,

sharing 2D images of everything,
viewing 2D images of everything.
masturbating over 2D images,
imitating 2D images.

It's this false 2D image world that some people are so steeped in, so attached to their devices - phones, tablets, laptops, they have forgotten that it doesn't have very much to do with reality which is knowable by at least 4 other senses.

So seeing Tara Hudson contorted, posed faking, pretending for a publicity shot is the 'real' but the shot of them built like a brick shit house, massive male entitlement and towering over their mum walking down the street is the 'unreal' one.

Do you think people should be able to misgender freely in the work place?

I belive the ten year old in question was in a ‘wandering in and commenting on the telly’ situation rather than on the executive board of a FTSE100.

In the street and in photos, I often think trans people pass better as women when they adopt conservative clothing and short/medium length professional hair cuts. They can look more like an androgynous woman at first glance.

Trans people who have ffs and are models? I can usually tell. There's something in the eyes. Like there's less warmth. They've not spent years being socialised to soften their gaze to appear appeasing to other people. It's subtle but I see it.

But why does the picture up thread look female?
If you took away the hair and the make up would they still look female? Woman is not a costume.

... sorry, pressed post too soon.

It's a Barbie doll look, not a female look.

SMG just wants everyone to say mean things about Bergdorf's appearance so that SMG can moan on about transphobia. Again. Don't fall for it.

As a general point vis a vis cosmetic surgery, I don't find it makes either women or transwomen who have it look more female. I think it makes them look more like those sex robots than actual women. I think this about Hollywood actresses as much as I do about transwomen. It's a

I think Munroe Bergdorf is an extremely unpleasant individual who deserved to be sacked by L'Oréal. Like everyone else who comes on This Week talking bollocks she was deservedly trounced by Andrew Neil.

I don't think she looks or sounds particularly masculine in that video.

I said on another thread, and was ridiculed for it, that apart from one female to male trans man I don't know any trans people and am not aware of trans people when I am out and about. I live in a city and am regularly in London. I can't think of any time I have been in a loo, restaurant, theatre or shop and thought to myself - oh there is a trans person who doesn't pass. Either trans people are very small numbers and/or they, at least on a fleeting glance basis, do pass.

Also - I have never heard of a photo assaulting a woman.

A carefully posed picture is just that, a picture.

Pictures of other high-profile Trans people are convincing, but the actual reality is often less so. Human beings can't change sex.
The End

As Nauticant said above

I love how the final word is supposed to be whether we can identify sex in humans from still photographs. When, just about all of the interactions that matter are interactions in person

All of the concerns about sex single spaces, changing rooms, prisons, sports, overnight accommodation, etc etc are about interactions in person.

Yep. And some men - I am thinking of Thai 'ladyboys' can be stunningly attractive. They are still men, though.