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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dark and stormies all round! Bluestocking piss up

992 replies

QuentinSummers · 08/06/2018 23:05

A friendly place for feminist or general chit chat. Welcome all!

OP posts:
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QuentinSummers · 12/06/2018 22:31

I agree with GG on this. Have said on multiple threads I would like to see a crime of something like "reckless penetration" so it's easier to prosecute rapes. At the moment the bar is so high that men basically get away with it, that isn't good for anyone.
If a man had to show how he hadn't been reckless I.e. made sure he had consent it would make a big difference.

OP posts:
ILikeyourHairyHands · 12/06/2018 21:13

It seems no-one's around and propping up the bar, but I'm a bottle down so I'll wade straight in.

I think what Greer was saying was that rape is unfortunately and generally a pretty fucking mundane crime, the majority of rapes are perpetrated without the use of violence (and yes, unwanted penetration with a penis is violence, but for the sake of argument she is using violence in this context to mean force).

Most rapes are committed within relationships or to people known to the perpetrator. Stranger rapes are statistically rare when looked at as a whole.

So, I think what GG is actually saying is, bring the bar for prosecution down, make it easier for women who have been raped in relationships or very undramatic ways to report and be taken seriously.

Make it so they are not dragged through the courts and treated as evidence and their lives and behaviour dissected in such damaging ways.

However, if this were to happen, sentences would have to be changed if the bar was lowered and prosecution was more likely. Her point being, rape should be prosecuted more widely, women shouldn't be stigmatized, BUT rape itself and the societal attitudes towards rapists would then be a powerful deterrent NOT to rape.

I've been raped, both by a casual acquaintance and my first husband. I didn't report it in either case because although I was absolutely raped and felt a powerful sense of injustice and fucking hatred for those men, I knew the legal process, as it stands, would not have aided 'me' to continue with my life. I would have been left stigmatised and damaged by an attempted prosecution. As it is, I have moved on without too much bother but had the legal system been different I would most certainly have reported both of those bastards.

LighthouseSouth · 11/06/2018 12:01

Woman, exactly.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 11/06/2018 04:34

I disagree - there's a difference between someone talking bullocks and a very misinformed, harmful to many women victims of rape stance - and why is it so awful to criticise GG?

No ones dismissing all her work from what I read, just critiquing her current work - and what's wrong with that? Is she beyond criticism?

I don't understand the concern - I don't need to defend GG as she is very capable of doing that herself - however many victims are voiceless and her current stance feels like another boot being put in- as many victims on Twitter are attesting to.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 10/06/2018 22:12

indeed. And Greer has an enormous fanbase of people that hang on her every word because of her track record for saying original incisive things. Yet that means when she talks bollocks it will be heard more widely than a person talking bollocks who is forgotten after their 15 minutes of fame.

BertrandRussell · 10/06/2018 21:31

Yes, of course she talked bollocks sometimes. She's been talking for 60 years. But there are people who've talked more bollocks than her when they've only been talking for 6 months.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 10/06/2018 21:18

I wish we could let people be human beings. Germaine Greer has said amazing insightful things beautifully in her time, but she is still human and will sometime talk bollocks.

Admitting someone is a fallible human who sometimes talks bollocks doesn't diminish the amazing things she has said/done at other times.

BertrandRussell · 10/06/2018 21:07

I'm not meaning anyone -I'm sorry. I'm just raging generally.

BertrandRussell · 10/06/2018 21:03

"Why is sexual display part of the job?"

LighthouseSouth · 10/06/2018 21:01

Bertrand, if you mean me, I am not dismissing her. I'm worried that she's changing to a "poor men" stance. I know full well I wouldn't be where I am without her but I cannot ignore what she is saying at present.

BertrandRussell · 10/06/2018 20:52

"She makes contemporary feminists look like midgets"

BertrandRussell · 10/06/2018 20:50

Jesus Christ how dare people
dismiss Greer? They wouldn't be where they are without her. I am so bloody angry about this. I might need to drink heavily........

LighthouseSouth · 10/06/2018 17:32

Thanks woman, that's really helpful

I'm not looking forward to her book being published, based on what she seems to be saying. I say "seems" because I'm struggling to get my head around it.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 10/06/2018 14:44
womanformallyknownaswoman · 10/06/2018 14:41

The 6 penetrations is a telegram that her father sent to her mother on the eve of their wedding if memory serves me right! GG thought there was nothing wrong with him writing those crude remarks and used it to illustrate something or other

because she was assaulted and just thinks "that's life" she thinks other women should "stop making a fuss" - that's exactly what GG was saying. She diagnosed the problem correctly with the current legal system in that the victim is a piece of evidence i.e. the case isn't about her finding justice but being used as evidence by the state - and treated as such - like a piece of property being fingerprinted. So in my terms, the current process isn't victim centred and hence not fit for purpose and I wouldn't recommend any woman being a witness at her own rape trial unless she has strong independent corroboration of what took place. The deck is too stacked against her.

GG described some of her own rape and I imagine by what she said that she hasn't debriefed it properly because whilst she is clear he was responsible, her articulation indicated she didn't have a coherent narrative of what happened - she seemed to not understand she had been targeted and groomed and then spent a few minutes pondering about the rapist and that he must be ill and needed treatment. She didn't have the anger she should have - and she acknowledged that - like she was looking in at herself but not feeling it - intellectualising the experience - classic for a woman who hasn't had the benefit of informed therapy to get to her anger- she's defending men.

And she basically inferred that if you didn't get on with your life, you were at fault and letting the perpetrator win plus buying into the "all women are victims" narrative. She also ridiculed the rape statistics of 70% of victims suffering PTSD and compared it with 20% of returning vets having the same diagnosis. She then said she didn't believe a rape would cause as much damage as watching your mate being blown up by an IED and hence didn't believe the statistics.

It was a very poorly conceived stance that she couldn't defend when challenged and she changed the subject many times when she couldn't justify her stance. I am very disappointed she has stepped into this arena when she hasn't the credentials to understand the impact of her hurtful and misinformed remarks on victims. The interviewer basically gave up trying to pin her down on how the legal process needed to change plus why she defended the perpetrators - at one point GG said she felt sorry for a horrendous rapist in Sydney because his career was destroyed (he was not convicted). Rosie Boycott the interviewer said she felt that was just desserts for what he had done and she felt no sympathy for him and couldn't understand why GG would. GG didn't respond.

ErrolTheDragon · 10/06/2018 14:36

It sounds something like saying, not all soldiers who've been through the same situation suffer PTSD so the ones that do should man up.Confused

LighthouseSouth · 10/06/2018 14:14

on GG comparing her experience to others

I think I had a rant about an anti-feminist friend a while ago on here

I have actually "broken up" with her. I didn't say anything about the feminist aspect but I did realise there was a major red line for me in that she doesn't seem to have any issues about how women are treated and because she was assaulted and just thinks "that's life" she thinks other women should "stop making a fuss".

LighthouseSouth · 10/06/2018 14:12

"6 more penetrations needed to secure the contract"

please could you explain what this means? I don't know what GG said at Hay.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 10/06/2018 14:10

ok, I listened to GG for an hour at Hay - her problem analysis was fine - her proposed solutions sucked. And she couldn't justify them to the interviewer. My take is she judges every woman's rape experience on her own, which she hasn't debriefed in therapy by her account, as she's still unclear what happened. She defended what sounded like an abusive wedding telegram of her father's (6 more penetrations needed to secure the contract) and she seemed to be more concerned with defending the perpetrators than the victims of rape.

Very, very disappointing and frankly unwarranted and uninformed. She victim blamed by accusing women of supporting the "playing the victim" narrative and being scared of the penis. -It illustrated her lack of empathy and her entitlement to think she has the credentials to represent what rape victims need from the justice system.

LighthouseSouth · 10/06/2018 13:50

@ISaySteadyOn

I wouldn't mind if it wasn't coffee Grin

ISaySteadyOn · 10/06/2018 13:16

It's coffee in this mug, honest guv. Wink

LighthouseSouth · 10/06/2018 12:42

@ISaySteadyOn

you propping up the bar at 8.57 reminds me of a trip to Vegas years ago
Grin

I remember a nice lady from the plane, we were chatting to her and she said she her plan was to hit the casino at 3 every day and we had no idea if that meant 3 in the morning or 3 at night.

the couple next door had a blazing row at dawn because they'd apparently won $7000 and the guy wanted to carry on so they lost most of it.

ISaySteadyOn · 10/06/2018 08:57

Just propping up my place at the bar. Don't mind me.

Waddlelikeapenguin · 09/06/2018 17:35

PermissionToSpeakSir yes! I have been struggling to articulate why i find SM so dangerous for society but it's the lack of older generations that is key. Will this resolve when we're the oldest generation or is this point in history too rapidly advancing & it will be something else by then?

Much earlier someone wrote about GG as academic rather than activist & i think that's a big part of it. I still love her though!

Pigeons are on my no fly list as they like the clover when the grass gets long, poo copiously & then the kids walk in it in bare feet. Blurrgghhh.

So much thunder here it's making me very happy Smile

LighthouseSouth · 09/06/2018 14:55

More work done
Snowball, have to look that up. Only know Del Trotter liked them.
We had a pigeon, it seemed very relaxed but was oblivious to the wide open window behind it.
I know I shouldn't judge by the comments of others but the more I hear about GG the more worried I am.

School reports after some booze Grin does that make every pupil fabulous?