Soul man

daim

Oh so you are saying that there is not risk in men being allowed to identify as women. And also that that risk hasn't ever been realised?

IAM

No, I'm at a loss...

to say the trans woman's motivation for transitioning was to gain that unfair advantage is really quite a leap.

YY

Every single TIM in women's sports for a start.

You're only looking at one aspect of their lives though; you're not looking at the whole picture to see if the move from man to woman would be worth it for someone to undertake purely for the sake of their sport.

You look at the lives of trans people - the flack they take, online and in the media, the social scorn of many (particularly trans people in the public eye), the difficulties with dating, the medical interventions and hormone adjustments (re:sport), the potential infertility, the constant justification, the conservatism and bigotry that still persists... How anyone would think our culture is one in which all of that would be totally worth it for the sake of being in league one in the women's rather than league 5 in the men's is a bit nuts to me. I can't see it myself.

Being trans every single day of your life does not look like a walk in the park. It's certainly not, "oh, if I take these tanning pills I'll get that scholarship and everything else will carry on as normal", is it.

Prawn I do agree there have been times where trans women in sport have had an unfair advantage over other women but to say the trans woman's motivation for transitioning was to gain that unfair advantage is really quite a leap.

That's why you'd be a fool to do it.

I can think of umpteen examples of TRAs who are benefiting from the situation. Every single TIM in women's sports for a start.

The thing is the act of "moving between the two" is so very stigmatised in our culture that any advantage you might retain you lose twice over in the moving.

This is nothing to do with the financial crash.

It's about taking yourself down from an elevated position meaning you arguably have an 'advantage' over those in the position you have moved into.

Woah. Did you miss the financial crash?

Er, what? Did the bankers all pretend to be women? Or black? I thought that's what we were talking about... And specifically pretending to be a woman would come with so many downsides (society being what it is) that you'd have to be dim to do it.

There's nothing dim about being motivated by advantage, but I was saying that being motivated to present as black, or to present as the opposite sex - by advantage - would be a really dim means of pursuing that end!

idea of someone being motivated by advantage is really quite debatable, full stop? And honestly, not in the least bit realistic.

Woah. Did you miss the financial crash? All those dim and silly people (they still have the cash BTW).

And it's disingenous to pretend these types of people don't exist - prisons are full of them

Those people are criminals - deception is often a part of breaking the law when you're aiming to get away with it.

If a predatory male tried to join that walking group he would be laughed out of town.

Before anyone says 'oh but you would be accused of being transphobic if you don't allow a female identifying man to come'

Open you eyes, look into the real world. Predatory men are easy to sniff out, especially by a tough group of lesbian hikers.

Daimbars if you were a predatory male, you probably wouldn't consider it 'silly' to identify as a lesbian to join than walking group. You'd probably consider it a damn good idea.

And it's disingenous to pretend these types of people don't exist - prisons are full of them

I guess you can question the motives of everyone.

I identify as a lesbian. I believe my motivation of identifying this way is due to my attraction to other woman.

You could argue my motivation would be to join this walking group:

https://londonhikingdykes.weebly.com

As Rat points out, it would be a really silly plan to identify as someone you are not in order to gain some kind of advantage.

But we already see men pretending to be trans to gain an advantage.

Christopher Hambrook, Ian Huntley, we could name numerous ones.

Are these transwomen, or men claiming to be transwomen to gain an advantage?

Doesn't that rather miss the point I was making earlier though Picasso that the idea of someone being motivated by advantage is really quite debatable, full stop? And honestly, not in the least bit realistic.

So it doesn't matter whether or not it would be moral or whether or not someone is aware it's their motivation or not, because the bottom line is it would be a really silly plan. Any possible advantage would come at a really, really high cost. So high that it would be completely pointless pursuing it unless you're really dim - and being really dim they would be almost certain to be found out!

pseudoscientology.wordpress.com/2014/04/10/vintage-scientology-e-meter-for-sale-on-ebay/

Wakama - here's another one.

I think the known and unknown motivations behind pursuing an identity different to your sex is is the fundamental point people are discussing.

Which motivations are more moral than others? Is the political motivation of making identity a moral imperative regardless of any immoral motivations (and no aspect of human endeavor is conducted entirely morally) ethical or unethical?

You do have to watch out for imposters. I wonder if they will make film about the Gayle Newland case in which a lesbian was convicted of three counts of sexual assault on a woman by penetration while pretending to be a man:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/29/gayle-newland-found-guilty-at-retrial-of-tricking-female-friend-into-sex

Is it an allegory though? If you're interpreting it an an allegory I'm afraid you're going to have to tell me what it's an allegory for as I'm just not seeing it. Perhaps it would help if I had seen the film; have you?

When you say "the movie's motivation was overt", do you mean to protagonist's motivation? And that his motivation was overt but if you compare it to trans people they might have the same motivation but perhaps be unaware that that is what motivates them?

I don't know, I think if a the connection is that one is knowingly motivated by something and the other you believe may be motivated by the same thing but unknowingly... well that's a connection that one would only make if they shared your belief. Probably not an actual objective connection between the two. Interesting though it may be to consider.

The song was good

The movie can be interpreted allegorically - a story, play, poem, picture, or other work in which the characters and events represent particular qualities or ideas that relate to morals, religion, or politics:

If you are phobia hunting remember that humans have used allegorical tales for millennia to understand life. It's an imperfect art.

The movie's motivation was overt, whereas we must all believe motivation for trans is never that. We don't, and the outcome is the same whether the person involved fully understands their own motivation or not.

Well Lang it is rather the case that if you think trans people are like the man in the film then you will find there to be similarities. And if you don't, you won't.

The question is rather what about the man in the film do you find similar to some trans people; which trans people and why?