"Reforming the GRA will not change anything because the EA will remain the same"

SarahAr - did I mention changing rooms here? If you actually pay attention you might have noticed that.

SwearyG - did I mention changing rooms here? Your repeated personal attacks are not helping the debate.

Agreed Lang. That's what I meant. It needs reforming, but in ways that will be useful for protecting women, not erode the few protections there are.

when the European court made its ruling there were only thought to be 2-5000 trans in the UK and they were all expected to have genital surgery.

Well yes, and no just under 5000 people have a GRC, and we are told that its clearly not working as intended. But..its working exactly as intended and helping the small amount of people it was supposed to help.

when the European court made its ruling there were only thought to be 2-5000 trans in the UK and they were all expected to have genital surgery.

This is true...my partner has a transsexual friend with gender dysphoria who started the process of obtaining a GRC and had to say that they intended to have surgery or they would not have been put on hormones.

It makes sense for such a radical step as changing the sex on one's birth certificate, to come with complete physical change.

On the face of it review of the EA looks like a good campaign. They want to strengthen enforceability

The thing is, EqA does need review. Basically, it was rushed through by a New Labour government that knew it was likely to lose the next election and wanted to get something on the statute before it did. The result is a well-meaning but often toothless Act with more holes than a Mumnset modded Swiss cheese thread.

We feminists should want EqA strengthened. But we also need to be sure that any review is not hijacked by transactivists and has women's rights as a priority.

A doctor is exempted if the disclosure is considered medically relevant. Ie if my problem is lower abdominal pain, my GRS is clearly relevant and the doctor can go against my wishes and disclose it.

A doctor on here said she had GMC training that this wasn't the case. People are clearly interpreting it in different ways. I have read this legislation and didn't think this was spelled out? Very happy to be proved wrong!

Maybe there is a case for repeal - at the UK and more importantly the European level.

There should be.

"The GRA2004 was introduced because in 2002 the European Court of Human Rights ruled that not allowing transsexuals to change their birth certificate was a breach of their human rights. However, when the European court made its ruling there were only thought to be 2-5000 trans in the UK and they were all expected to have genital surgery. Based on that the court ruled it would have negligible impact on society. The balance was fair.

That has changed completely. We have something like 500,000 trans in the UK and hardly any have surgery. Now the balance is unfair. Maybe there is a case for repeal - at the UK and more importantly the European level."

www.facebook.com/fairplayforwomen/photos/a.203323566744461.1073741828.203074990102652/404824469927702/?type=3&theater

Removal of single Sex space exemptions has always been part of the plan . Know your enemy.

On the face of it review of the EA looks like a good campaign. They want to strengthen enforceability www.equalityactreview.co.uk/

twitter.com/EqualityActRev/status/1004671911174041601?s=19

They're going after the Equality Act now. Wes Streeting apparently a supporter.

There are a few exemptions to disclosure, but these are poorly written. The example given to me at training recently by an equality barrister related to a medical secretary.

A doctor is exempted if the disclosure is considered medically relevant. Ie if my problem is lower abdominal pain, my GRS is clearly relevant and the doctor can go against my wishes and disclose it.

The exemption doesn't extend to his support staff, including medical secretaries, so if she writes up a letter and sends it off, she breaks the law and theoretically could get a criminal record for it.

As, I say, totally think that this should not be in the GRA.

SarahAr - did I mention changing rooms here? If you actually pay attention you might have noticed that. MF seeks to have current exemptions re single sex spaces in the EA applied where lobby groups have encouraged them to be removed. Where we want separate sex spaces - and most trans identified men would be excludable because they are still legally male.

What I mention here is that the provision to exclude male women (trans identified men) from spaces exists in the EA but it is unenforceable because, as Bronners says the GRA has a section that states you can’t ask to see a GRC, which is what would show someone to be trans.

Really? sorry I was off on a Thin Lizzy blast.

One person didn't like the song Picasso. Boooo.

Regarding disclosure of a GRC, section 22 of the GRA makes it a criminal offence with a fine of up to £5000.

Isn't that section aimed at doctors, teachers, police officers etc? You have to be able to ask, and we need to ensure this question comes up in any consultation as Venice said.

No. That is unlawful direct discrimination on grounds of perception of gender reassignment.
As direct discrimination it cannot be justified and the legal claim must succeed.

You TRAs need to get your story straight. Because plenty of them have told us that we can do this so what are we worried about?

For you SarahAr.

Regarding disclosure of a GRC, section 22 of the GRA makes it a criminal offence with a fine of up to £5000.

It is a crappy bit of the legislation if I'm honest and it shouldn't be there, but it is what it is. I think, at worst it should be a civil matter.

You cannae ask for a GRC.

Again the ministry of truth has spoken "trans women are women" please people stop using your eyes and accept 2 + 2= 5.

The new newspeak.

If its a women only space or service then its not discrimination. They exist for a reason.

But you can’t prove that person is trans. Their birth certificate will be indistinguishable from that of someone born female and you can’t ask to see a GRC. If they don’t volunteer the information there is no way you can ascertain it.

The provision to exclude transwomen from women’s spaces is unenforceable

There is no law to stop you from asking for a GRC. You could ask for a GRC and then exclude a woman for being trans.

However, the EA is designed to prevent this kind of discrimination. If there are no practical difficulties in a transwomen using facilities and a service provider chooses to exclude her then it will not fit into the EA exceptions.

However, if practical difficulties arise from a woman being trans, then she can be excluded provided it is for a legitimate aim and is proportionate. In this case the need to see a GRC is irrelevant.

SwearyG - the EA exceptions deal with practical issues involving trans people using sex segregated spaces - they don't allow blanket discrimination against trans people - which is clearly the aim of the ManFriday campaign.

There are very few butch women who actually genuinely appear to be male. Humans are very good at discerning sex. We have to be for our own safety.

These lesbians clearly look like women to me, but they were barred from the women's toilets.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2910003/Lesbian-couple-kicked-ladies-toilets-cinema-security-guard-thought-MEN.html

Apologies for the link to the DM - can't easily find it in other online papers (although they did cover it at the time)

There are very few butch women who actually genuinely appear to be male. Humans are very good at discerning sex. We have to be for our own safety.