You can directly discriminate against a transwoman with a GRC if you are invoking the sex exemptions.

Once one understands how leaky both self id and gender reassignment are (zero gate keeping and easy for men to abuse) it actually becomes easier to invoke the exemptions as keeping predators out is a legitimate aim. it’s proportionate for institutions dealing with the public to do so as a blanket basis as it’s just not proportionate to do so on a case by case basis.

The landlord case is a first instance decision. It’s the only case but it’s hardly a binding precedent. We need to be forcing this through the courts.

Right now institutions are worried about the legal threat of messing up gender reassignment protections and have taken their eye of the ball. Women are by far and away the more potent legal threat just as a percentage game.

Yesterday 21:59 GibbertyFlibbert

If someone is doing nothing wrong other than looking as though they might have a trans history there is zero you can do. And rightly so

Translation: if a man is naked in a changing room with you it's quite right that you can do nothing about it

What a rapey point of view

This from a man who thinks a rape crisis centre is 'odious'

No, you can't because asking to see a GRC is axiomatically direct discrimination - you are only subjecting someone to that detriment of intrusion into their personal life because you perceive them to be trans.

gibberty It might be a good idea to acquaint yourself with what the law actually says before coming on here and spouting a load of made-up nonsense. There are many situations where people with GRCs can be excluded from single-sex services for their acquired legal sex.

Here's a handy guide:
fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/EA2010_womensrights_-factsheet.pdf

And you can read the relevant parts of the act here: www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents

Now we just need everyone to apply the act properly.

In my experience, we correctly perceive these men as men. Because they are men. That is the point.

Inability, unwillingness, being instructed not to challenge men in women's spaces, is extremely problematic and a direct assault on women's human rights.

And these men are doing something wrong because they are forcing themselves into women-only spaces, women-only roles etc. in contravention of the admittedly weak EqA and against our consent.

If someone is doing nothing wrong other than looking as though they might have a trans history there is zero you can do. And rightly so because the whole point is that they are doing nothing wrong so your objections can only stem from prejudice.

If they are doing something wrong then that can be addressed because you aren't singling out trans people but singling out unreasonable behaviour. So long as it is genuinely unreasonable then the Equality Act isn't a problem. You need to focus on conduct not gender history.

"Could we extend access through the Equality Act to the currently protected link between the natal birth certificate and that of the altered one created by the Gender Recognition Act?

No, because that is an human rights issue.

"But alternatively someone who might be a transwomen joins but you are not sure. Therefore you would like to ask her for her GRC before excluding her. The problem is not that you cannot ask for a GRC, you can. The problem is that if you cannot tell they are trans it would be unlikely they would fit into the EX exceptions."

No, you can't because asking to see a GRC is axiomatically direct discrimination - you are only subjecting someone to that detriment of intrusion into their personal life because you perceive them to be trans. It’s a slam-dunk legal win because direct discrimination cannot be justified.

Moreover there is zero requirement for any trans person to truthfully answer a question which is itself unlawful.

All this running around the houses. I am SICK of what men are making us do. I am sick of it. I will never forgive transactivists for trying to turn the clock back on our rights in this calculated and vindictive fashion. .

Could we extend access through the Equality Act to the currently protected link between the natal birth certificate and that of the altered one created by the Gender Recognition Act?

I think someone like the police can ask the officer at the register office to link the two and open birth identity details for legitimate need.

Make this something a wider range of sources can do specified by the EA. Such as Refuge managers, hospital care providers.

That way legitimate reasons to ask are available in a non intrusive way that protects the same sex spaces to exclusion when they should be protected.

Just a thought.

SarahAr

But alternatively someone who might be a transwomen joins but you are not sure. Therefore you would like to ask her for her GRC before excluding her. The problem is not that you cannot ask for a GRC, you can.

Leaving aside whether or not you can ask for a GRC, if you want the person in your example to prove that they are legally female, you can ask for a birth certificate. They show you a birth certificate which says female. How do you know whether that is female with a GRC or born female?

It would be pointless to then ask for a GRC, because someone born female won't have one, so someone with a GRC who wants you to believe that they were born female will say they don't have one. What do you do now?

SarahAr Well you could call the police suppose, but why would they attend when you don't know that they are NOT young girls?. If they say they ARE young girls then you and the police have no right to interfere, but then again didn't we agree that asking them would be an offence?

Of course that sounds quite mad, but it seems to be the ideal world we're working towards.

And what I said has nothing to do with the behaviour or morals of actual trans people, but the effect of a stupid law. I'm sure most new laws these days are scribbled on the back on an envelope on the way into work.

Maybe I'm missing something and that couldn't happen. I'd be happy to be shown where I went wrong.

Damn, that's quite the Freudian slip.

Isn't it?!

In this case a transgender woman was refused access to a female in a pub

Damn, that's quite the Freudian slip.

Spreading false information does not help women's rights.

Every single time! Accusation = admission. Just can't help themselves.

If you could stop dissembling, SarahAr, then we could all get on with furthering women's rights.

And stop managing us, your male socialisation is showing.

Well do stop then SarahAr.

I was saying things like "how about if you wait outside while your daughter goes in a public toilet and six bikers with beards and beer cans follow her in and you can't say anything as the bikers 'might be little girls really".

Protection against discrimination for people with the protected characteristic of "gender reassignment" against discrimination in goods and services have been the law for 10 years. Firstly as part of the Sex Discrimination Act and then the Equality Act.

The number of court cases has been minimal - I only know of one. In this case a transgender woman was refused access to a female in a pub. I have not seen any service provider go on record and say we need to discriminate against trans people - but the EA won't let us.

In the hypothetical situation described above you call the police and tell the service provider - let them worry about the law. And guess what the EA will not protect the hypothetical bikers.

Spreading false information does not help women's rights.

Almost impossible as far as I can see, but at least if it were illegal that would be something.

I was trying to explain to someone how bad this could be and they were thinking that worst case you might suspect that a person in the changing room or sitting next to you on the bus was a different sex than they appeared, but not be sure.

I was saying things like "how about if you wait outside while your daughter goes in a public toilet and six bikers with beards and beer cans follow her in and you can't say anything as the bikers 'might be little girls really".
They wouldn't have to be trans at all and it's not like all trans people are monsters anyway. It's the crazy laws that are the problem and what they lead to.

LastTrainEast - yes - but how to enforce it?

This is all new to me and it's shocking how much it changed without me knowing, but I don't think that gov response helps. As others have realised the service providers are going to take the easiest route and anyone objecting will be causing a breach of the peace.

To do anything at all it needs to be an offence to enter a place intended for the opposite sex and an offence to knowingly allow it.

This Equality Act claim is a lie being parroted temporarily in order to get self ID on the books.

OK So can we join this campaign to revise the EA to insist that they strengthen sex exemptions? Make sure in certain areas they must be applied? This would be something worth fighting for.

What I mention here is that the provision to exclude male women (trans identified men) from spaces exists in the EA but it is unenforceable because, as Bronners says the GRA has a section that states you can’t ask to see a GRC, which is what would show someone to be trans.

This is completely wrong. As I have explained you can ask for a GRC if needed. Two examples may make this clearer.

Imagine you run a group counselling session that is provided for female victims of sexual assault. If someone who is obviously a transwomen joins, you could exclude her under the EA exceptions if it is for a legitimate aim and is proportional.

But alternatively someone who might be a transwomen joins but you are not sure. Therefore you would like to ask her for her GRC before excluding her. The problem is not that you cannot ask for a GRC, you can. The problem is that if you cannot tell they are trans it would be unlikely they would fit into the EX exceptions.

From the EHRC statutory code of practice 13.59:

Service providers should be aware that where a transsexual person is visually and for all practical purposes indistinguishable from a non-transsexual person of that gender, they should normally be treated according to their acquired gender, unless there are strong reasons to the contrary.

Regarding disclosure of a GRC, section 22 of the GRA makes it a criminal offence with a fine of up to £5000.

It is a crappy bit of the legislation if I'm honest and it shouldn't be there, but it is what it is. I think, at worst it should be a civil matter.

You cannae ask for a GRC.

You can ask for a GRC. All section 22 does it prevent you telling your mates down the pub that so and so is trans. The EHRC discuss when you can ask for a GRC in its statutory guidance www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/servicescode_0.pdf.

2.27 Transsexual people should not be routinely asked to produce their Gender Recognition Certificate as evidence of their legal gender

So you cannot routinely ask for a GRC (that would be discrimination) but you can ask for one if you have good reason.