Transgender man gives birth and wants to be recorded as baby's father

Great post Bowl

with neither exercising any kind of common sense or a "live and let live" attitude. Honestly I want no part of it!

I was very live and let live as well. I do know two older transsexuals in real life and both are very much of the old school. They’re both decent people and I would hope that in the future society is more tolerant of those who are not gender confirming so they can live without the mockery that seems to follow them everywhere.

However....

There is a second group of people who now identify as trans. Most of this group are not classically gender dysphoric. They have autogynephilia and they are, collectively, destroying that live and let live tolerance that’s previously existed.

Their insistence on entering women’s spaces is troubling. Their abuse of gender critical women, feminists and frankly anyone who doesn’t blindly say that men can become women is troubling

What really troubles me the most though is their targeting of children. Many children (as I’m sure you will see in your work) struggle with puberty. In our current climate of hyper sexuality young girls are under huge pressure to conform to these increasingly narrow gender stereotypes. I’m an old gimmer and in my day teen girls could wear so much more variety (short hair, long hair, dresses, doc martins, whatever) and men could wear make up (the 80s!!) but now all that seems to have regressed. And if you’re a feminine boy they pressure you into thinking your sex is wrong. But of course your sex isn’t wrong - it’s that the stereotypes are too narrow.

So then these kids (and 80% of them will get through this and be Ok with their gender if supported and given time) are being told they can change sex. They’re being told that drugs like Lupron and triptorelin are ‘a harmless pause button’ on puberty. And of course they’re not, they’re horribly powerful drugs with irreversible effects. But once you’re on them, you’re pretty much committed to being trans, and so kids who don’t actually need any treatment are being channelled down this route of blockers — cross sex hormones—surgery.
And that’s major surgery. Sterility. No possibility of banking sperm or ovae, no transition through puberty, cognitive damage, metabolic damage.

It’s horrific. And I’m amazed there’s not more outcry about it. Kids being left sterile and in a state of permanent pre adolescence for what? So that society doesn’t have to address the fact that our gender stereotypes are shit.

I understand that it can look like a bun fight, but please, as a paediatrician think - you wouldn’t treat a patient population where 80% would get better just fine and the remaining 20% don’t have a life threatening condition and are physically healthy with drugs that sterilised, and had osteoporosis, diabetes, cognitive damage as side effects would you? You’d be aghast at the idea, because it’s awful.

Also, people with intersex conditions have asked not to included in the discussion regarding trans issues. Doing so is both disrespectful and disingenuous and shows that TRAs are grasping at straws.

I don't think anyone here is concerning themselves with genetic intersex conditions.
What most of us simply want it recognised that genetic males, if presenting as women, do not erode the rights and protections of genetic females.
It really is that simple.

I disagree that biological sex is exclusively binary (I can agree that it is usually binary, of course) and I think that intersex conditions prove that babelfish. Otherwise, I think I've said all that I need and want to.

You are right to point out that intersex and trans are separate issues. I was trying to make an allegory to the fact that having a womb, does not mean you are, should be or have to identify as a woman. It has opened a can of worms.

I'm not a TRA or a pressure group. Mumsnet seems obsessed with trans paranoid about trans pressure groups. I'm a female paediatrician whose never posted about trans issues on this board or any other. I just get on with my life and hardly think about trans people. Since coming on mumsnet I read about both antifeminist trans groups and antitrans feminist groups and there seems to be some kind of war going on, with neither exercising any kind of common sense or a "live and let live" attitude. Honestly I want no part of it!

You’re welcome terfsup

Bowlofbabelfish, thank you for interesting and informative posts.

Simply that chromosomal and phenotypical sex aren't solely binary. It's not a bold claim. It's a fact.

Sex is binary. These conditions are abnormalities of growth and development. As I keep saying, a child with severe holoprocencephaly doesn’t prove that there’s a natural class of cyclopian humans. DSDs and intersex conditions don’t show that sex is a spectrum - they show that all developmental processes are prone to going wrong.

The insistence that DSDs and intersex conditions are extremely common is untrue. True intersex conditions are rare. TRAs have been trying to insinuate that women with simple cliteromegaly or men with hypospadias are intersex - this is wrong. They are trying to do this to promote this idea that ‘sex isnt binary’

It is binary. You should know that rare abnormalities say nothing about the default.

Calves born with two heads - it’s fascinating but the default number of human heads and cow heads is one.

Intersex people have had a rough time of it since time immemorial. They do not deserve some MRA pressure group with an agenda hijacking their legitimate concerns and medical issues. If I was intersex I’d be pretty pissed off at this and I’d be telling the TRA crew to feck off in no uncertain terms.

@shrimpi - I am not wrong - you are attributing to me something I did not say. I am aware of XXY chromosomes, thank you.

I don't want to be rude. But you are simply wrong.

So, yes. You are being rude by accusing me of saying something that I did not say.

You are the one who used the term "male genitalia". I am the one who used the term "ambiguous genitalia".

there is the matter of legal sex

It is not legal sex, it is legal gender. You cannot change your sex legally or otherwise. You can, however, legally change your gender.

Also echoing what OrchidInTheSun asked:

Please could you respond to Bowl's point, Shrimpi? This one:
"Also, a fully functional uterus AND fully functional Male genitalia have never been seen to coexist - again please do let me know if I’m wrong. Non fully formed male genitalia and non functional aspects of the female reproductive system have been found in individuals."

Just to explain CAH to people. It can happen in males or females. It’s caused by several different abnormalities in the processes that create and react to sex steroids. In females it usually presents as ambiguous genitalia, early onset periods, and hormonal abnormalities like PCos. In males there are usually no signs at birth, but under or over masculinised (usually under.) sufferers of both sexes have a variety of metabolic problems as well.

As far as I know (and please do correct me if I’m wrong) CAH is NOT what people think of as hermaphroditism. One does not have Male and female genitalia together with this syndrome.

@BowlofBabelfish

You are correct that most people with intersex conditions would need assistance to conceive.

People with XX CAH phenotypically male may have a penis and scrotum, but cannot produce sperm. They may have functional wombs.

People with XY androgen insensitivity phenotypically female will usually have a functional womb and vagina, but not ovaries and may have non functional testes.

XXY phenotypically male, I believe can be fertile (produce sperm) with treatment in some cases. They have no female organs.

People with XO phenotypically female have a womb and vagina but usually streak ovaries. I believe some with mosaicism may have functional ovarian tissue.

I'm not saying these conditions aren't medical conditions, plainly they are. Simply that chromosomal and phenotypical sex aren't solely binary. It's not a bold claim. It's a fact.

Completely phenotypically male babies with XX chromosomes,

Again, not quite so. 90% of cases have a crossover, complete or incomplete, or the SRY region of the Y. In effect a bit of Y has tagged along and stuck to the x.

But again - if you’re a doctor you will see countless examples of incorrect development. Of abnormality. These cases do not change the default.

Or Does that mean that a child with sirenomelia proves that the default number of lower limbs is not two?

The way a child is raised is of paramount importance. Not how they were conceived, who gave birth to them, who is listed as parent blah blah blah.

wonderful way to dismiss the real feelings and concerns of adopted people - blah blah blah!

CAH doesn’t result in the situation you described though (fully functional womb, fully functional Male genitalia.)

@TerfsUp

I don't want to be rude. But you are simply wrong.

XX / XY denotes chromosomal sex, but some people can have both, some people can have a single X, some people can have XXY.

Then there is the matter of sexual organs and genitalia which do not always follow genetic chromosomes.

Intersex conditions are actually not that uncommon. Something like 1:2000 babies are born with ambiguous genitalia. 1:2500 female infants actually have a single X genotype. Have you ever heard of XX syndrome? Completely phenotypically male babies with XX chromosomes, that's one is 1:20,000. CAH affects 1:10,000. 1:500 to 1:1000 boys has XXY chromosomes.

You are the person trying to alter biological reality to fit your own view of sex and gender. After all, you just told me something is impossible when it plainly isn't and you could read about it if you chose to.

Apart from chromosomes, sexual organs and genitalia there is the matter of legal sex, which regardless of your opinion, is also not dependant upon the chromosomal sex or necessarily the organs or genitalia that a person possesses or used to possess.

Then there is gender and sexual identity. Which may or may not tie in with chromosomes, phenotype, or legality. Some people just find this interesting, not threatening.

Wondering what the implications would be for future passport applications for the child...surely the only thing concrete (as much as it can be) on a birth certificate is the name of the mother?

@bowlofbabelfish - I don't know if you are a doctor but your explanation is coherent and informed, unlike that of shrimpi

I’m Not That Type Of Doctor im a scientist, a geneticist with a background in genetics and human development (and he shit that can go wrong in it.)

TRAs are grossly misrepresenting science in a lot of these threads.

Also, a fully functional uterus AND fully functional Male genitalia have never been seen to coexist - again please do let me know if I’m wrong. Non fully formed male genitalia and non functional aspects of the female reproductive system have been found in individuals. DSDs don’t usually result in perfectly functional ‘one of each’ physiology.

But again, I have to say ‘so what?’ - a child with sirenomelia doesn’t prove there’s a natural subset of humans with a single lower limb. A person with polydactyl doesn’t change the fact that the default number of digits is five per limb. A foetus with severe holoprocencephaly doesn’t prove there’s a subset of cyclopic humans.

These are errors and abnormalities in development. They’re fascinating. They tell us a lot about the pathways of normal development - but they don’t change the default human body plan or the default human sex binary.

I suppose it depends on when the mother/father was registered as having changed officially on the records to male. If they were registered as male before the birth then I suppose they could put father, but if you want to be a male why have a baby which is quite a female thing to do imo! I think it would really confuse records years down the line. And if you put 'father' who do you put as 'mother'. Whilst I support people who wish to be transgender, I think there have to be limits and this is one...

Ooops - should read "the genitalia of people with this condition may be ambiguous". Not male. Ambiguous.

@bowlofbabelfish - I don't know if you are a doctor but your explanation is coherent and informed, unlike that of @shrimpi.

male external genitalia

Wrong - the genitalia of people with this condition may have "ambiguous" genitalia. But if they have XX chromosomes they are female.

No it wouldn’t - if you were to make a change like this you could have a short form that showed legal parents and gender (born or acquired). Would still prove date/place birth and parental responsibility etc but we would then have one totally unchanging scientifically correct record of parentage (ok apart from when the alleged father actually isn’t)...

You then write laws to protect chromosomal women where necessary and female gender where not!

I am XX with a womb. But I also male genitals that I was born with, a male physique, a birth certificate where I am given as a boy, a wife with whom I have penetrative sex.Am I a man or a woman?

Depends on whether you are truly XX or XX with some kind of crossover of the sry portion of the Y chromosome into the X. It’s technically possible you could have De la Chapelle syndrome or one of the extremely rare partial masculinisation mutations in sox9 or wnt4. If you are truly XX you are female.

You would be unlikely to be able to conceive naturally regardless of the mutation. Carrying a surrogate pregnancy is as far as I know still a hypothetical in such a case (I’d be interested to hear otherwise, please do let me know if you’re aware of such a case.)

In summary - hard cases make bad law. Very rare DSDs, intersex conditions etc say nothing about the regular human condition being a sex binary any more than a person with polydactyl proves that the default number of digits isn’t six.