Transgender man gives birth and wants to be recorded as baby's father

She did not have completely male genitalia.

But this contradicts the "scenario" you posited and that I quoted, in full, above.

@shrimpi

Okay?! So please stop calling me a liar.

Please point to my post(s) where I did so.

@Shrimpi

No. A person with XX chromosomes cannot be born with male genitalia with which they can have penetrative sex with a woman. Please provide me with an example from the literature to support this "scenario" (your word, not mine).

Since this Also, a fully functional uterus AND fully functional Male genitalia have never been seen to coexist - again please do let me know if I’m wrong. Non fully formed male genitalia and non functional aspects of the female reproductive system have been found in individuals. has been asked twice, now is your chance to set the record straight.#

Thank you.

Just to be clear (and so that I am not accused of being dishonest!) the woman in this case was identified as female at birth. She did not have completely male genitalia. However, I can see no reason, given that CAH is a spectrum with a variety of internal and external presentations, that it is possible for a person to have male appearing external genitalia, and a functional uterus in this condition. This ofc would not be common! It's a stupid point that I should never have brought up. But I wasn't lying.

@Terfsup

Again, which they can. As I said before, not an impossible scenario.

Classic CAH with virilisation at birth (therefore androgynous or male appearing genitalia) can with steroid treatment produce ova and sustain a pregnancy. Obviously most people in this position would identify as female, and would have had corrective surgery to make their genitalia appear female. However, in theory if they did not, if they chose to keep a phallus with a typically male penile appearance (obviously they could not conceive naturally without a vagina), and were taking adequate suppressive steroid treatment, then they could sustain a pregnancy in their own uterus, despite having a "penis'.

I don't actually know how taking the steroid treatment would affect erectile function.

Really, I should not have brought up intersex (I regret it), this isnt the right thread to discuss it. However, I profoundly resent being called a liar when I am not.

Here is a case study of a woman with CAH who sustained a pregnancy in her own uterus. She had corrective surgery to alter her genitalia to have a more female appearance (clitoral resection and vaginoplasty) www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4742476/

Okay?! So please stop calling me a liar.

I didn't say all female infants with CAH have what appears to be a penis and scrotum only that some can.

That is correct. You didn't. You claimed that someone can be born with a uterus and male genitalia.

Your quote: Imagine the following: I am XX with a womb. But I also male genitals that I was born with, a male physique, a birth certificate where I am given as a boy, a wife with whom I have penetrative sex.

@GeorgeFayne

I feel like I'm being victimised here.

I didn't say all female infants with CAH have what appears to be a penis and scrotum only that some can. In understand that cliteromegaly or an ambiguous appearance would be more common.

It is certainly possible so please don't accuse me of lying.

Explaining that an apparently male child with undescended testes is actually XX with CAH to parents was one of my cases in an MRCPCH prep course.

Would you care to read this paper exploring the issues surrounding "approach to assigning gender in 46, XX congenital adrenal hyperplasia with male external genitalia" which is based in a case series before you accuse me of lying.

academic.oup.com/jcem/article/95/10/4501/2835100

I would really like this thread to stand because there is some really informative stuff on here.
Nobody else on here has called for a child to be removed from its parent based on this case and what has been discussed on here PoisonousSmurf

And can I just point out that this person is a woman. The people we are concerned for primarily here. The fact she does not wish to be has no bearing on me. I detest seeing them disparaged in such a harsh way.

@poisonoussmurf Millions and millions of parents make selfish decisions about some things. Their decision should definitely not lead to the very cruel and life destroying action of removing their baby.

Sadly, this concern is no longer being discussed or researched in the medical community. Rather, we "honor" such choices...the children be damned.

It's shocking. Any such research proposal would likely never be allowed as it would be considered transphobic.

there are lots of children of eastern german athletes who are damaged due to state sponsored doping during the russian occupation.
for women doping often involves meddling with the hormones.

I hadn’t thought about that either.
Would you be kind enough to explain this very simply for non scientists/medics?

What do we know about any epigenetic/genetic/heritable effects on human eggs from testosterone?

If there are genetic or epigenetic changes does this mean that if a biological woman takes testosterone, then uses her eggs, her biological daughter but also biological granddaughter etc etc could be affected by these changes?

If there are likely to be changes what should the advice be to biological women taking male hormones? And what about sperm, is the DNA in sperm affected in biological men taking female hormones in a way that can be inherited? How should these men be advised?

Ah, sad I missed the biological discussion regarding intersex individuals. Bowlofbabelfish, excellent job (as usual)! And Shrimpi, as a fellow pediatrician, I was a bit surprised to see you describe a female with CAH as having a penis and scrotum. I've always read and referred to such a patient as having virilization resulting in ambiguous genitalia, (typically clitoromegaly and enlarged, fused labia). I've never seen any suggestion that these little girls have a "penis" or "scrotum." Interesting...

Moving on, though. One thing that really bothers me about transmen having babies is the potential effect of exogenous testosterone on their eggs. Remember that our eggs are part of us from our own fetal life. Exposure to unnatural levels of testosterone (even many years prior to conception) could be quite harmful. Considering epigenetic changes, these children are at risk for significant adverse outcomes, including issues later in life with their own fertility.

Sadly, this concern is no longer being discussed or researched in the medical community. Rather, we "honor" such choices...the children be damned.

Fuck it. I'm so done with this narcissism and obsession with SELF.

Pallisers That makes sense.

Right I'm off to bed! Thanks for all the provocation.

The birth certificate should record the truth, a child deserves that much. Putting the delusions of it's mother down as it's father is a lie and disrespectful to the child.

I think they adopt in that situation listeners. So the paper trail is then clear for the child.

And one thing that bothers me in this is us referring to "the child". Adoptees are always "the adopted child". The reality is people are adults in the blink of an eye and have the right to the truth about their birth. Just that.

But isn't there already a precedent of birth certificates sometimes being changed - I'm pretty sure the public record doesn't have a child's birth parents after adoption, for example?

Do you mean is a child's original birth cert expunged from the record after adoption - then no. It remains there as a record of an event that was legally required to be recorded. It may be hidden from the child but that is a different thing. An adoption certificate does not replace a birth certificate, it just follows it and becomes the document of record.

The birth mother is on the birth certificate in surrogacy cases and adoption cases.

Pallisers Yes perhaps that is a better way forward and I'm getting hung up on the birth certificate. Maybe a separate document would be a helpful solution.

Regarding the guardians - I meant for these to be the people intending to bring the child up. Say if there was a surrogate mother who was the birth mother named on the certificate but had no intention of being responsible for the child growing up. Them buggering off would be the the same situation as a biological parent buggering off - I assume there is a process in place when this happens.

But isn't there already a precedent of birth certificates sometimes being changed - I'm pretty sure the public record doesn't have a child's birth parents after adoption, for example?