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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Baby could become first person born in England or Wales without a legal mother

206 replies

hungryhippie · 07/06/2018 17:48

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5817699/Baby-person-born-England-Wales-without-legal-mother.html

Hi, long time lurker here. Just came across this story online. If this ruling gets through I imagine it will open a whole other can of worms.
How can the law say the child has no Mother?

OP posts:
Ineedacupofteadesperately · 07/06/2018 21:33

The last thing I was thinking about when I had a newborn was my feelings about my body (or anything else really for that matter). I was primarily interested in my child and their needs and I think it's pretty abnormal not to feel this way. It strikes me as hugely narcissistic and entitled to do this and a clear signal that this child's needs do NOT come first to this parent (whatever they want to be called seems pretty secondary to that glaringly obvious issue to be honest).

Also, how on earth can a birth certificate (something that most of us only look at once in a blue moon) be more upsetting than actually being pregnant for 9 months?

Finally if all this is true I find it a bit mind boggling that the fertility clinic went along with it. The hoops DH and I had to jump through and the forms we had to sign when we had IVF .... I suspect the legal ramifications haven't been considered fully. I wonder if there's anything in the donor paperwork that indicates they may be donating to a transman and I wonder how many donors would sanction this.

NotMeOhNo · 07/06/2018 21:30

Yes we are beholden to the dictionary.
Sorry, not very woke are we?

MrsToddsShortcut · 07/06/2018 21:29

No, Posie didn't say that. She said 'that woman shouldn't have children' not that she shouldn't be allowed to. Not the same.

And I've reported you for trying to start a bun fight on another poster.

SomeDyke · 07/06/2018 21:26

This case is actually another nice example of the difference between biological reality, and social relations. So, just as being male or female (sex) is a biological fact, but someone may want to be treated as a masculine or feminine person by society (gender), so we need the amended birth certificate of the GRC (but still kept on record elsewhere that this has been done). So, for social reasons, you can get a birth certificate that accords with your presented gender.

But in this case, the amendment would not be for the benefit of the person for whom the certificate is issued. There is no procedure in place for you to change the birth certificates of someone you give birth to. If it were allowed, it deprives the child of correct factual knowledge about their parentage. Just as if a transwoman who fathered a child wanted to refuse to be named on that childs birth certificate because by so doing that would out them as male. Well, in that case I would say, if you didn't want to be outed as male, you shouldn't go around fertilising eggs with your sperm.

A child, however produced/adopted/whatever, I think has a right to be able to access their biological origins, however uncomfortable fathers and mothers may get (one reason why so hard to get sperm donors nowadays). So, the biological relationship is what it is, even if you want to have the 'social' relationship to a child as a 'father', and even if you might someday have to deal with explaining the complications.

I suppose, as regards the child, the closest comparisons are like cases where a child later discovers that then person they thought was their mother was actually their grandmother, and their supposed sister was actually their mother. These situations, although easier for the adults concerned are not always easiest for the child, who has a right to know where they came from if they want, however complicated or convoluted.

SuperDandy · 07/06/2018 21:25

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Ereshkigal · 07/06/2018 21:18

He's had the surgery and is now legally a man

Nope. It looks like a mastectomy, not genital surgery.

Ereshkigal · 07/06/2018 21:17

CJ said it on the Genderquake debate.

GeordieTerf · 07/06/2018 21:09

I think I read that Caitlyn Jenner "allows" their kids to still call him dad. I'm not sure about grandkids though.

Basically, the choice should be with the child, not adult. As a parent, you have to be selfless sometimes.

BatShite · 07/06/2018 21:08

I find it interesting in a really depressing way, how transmen only ever make the press for having babies.

noeffingidea · 07/06/2018 21:06

He's had the surgery and is now legally a man
Legal status is irrelevant here. The birth certificate records who carried and gave birth to the child as the mother. Just because the mother identifies themselves as a man and a father doesn't change the facts.

Skyejuly · 07/06/2018 21:05

This is ridiculous. A mother gave birth. End off. Imo.

pombear · 07/06/2018 21:05

Exactly Eresh. No one's flaming anyone, no abestos suit required. This board is a debate board, people trying to understand other's perspectives.

User546425732 Yes 'he' has had the surgery, but just 'top' surgery which means a mastectomy, otherwise 'he' wouldn't be able to birth a child. Which means 'he' has to be female. Is taking off your breasts, and then being pregnant, enough to define you as male?

This is different to babies having two mothers or two fathers, as I've said above.

This is erasing the meaning of mother and father words in birth. And telling a child a lie.

SarahCarer · 07/06/2018 21:01

I'm not sure we can assume there is any intention to deceive the child other than by altering the meaning of the word Father. What does worry me is that if this law changes all references to mothers would have to be changed to parent 1 or 'mother or father' would this not endanger the right of the mother where she is unmarried to have the birth certificate issued? If a father can prove he is the father will he be able to get a birth certificate and leave off the mother's name? The law would have to let him otherwise it would be treating him differently from men who have uteruses?

SuperDandy · 07/06/2018 20:59

Lifesavingorange "I hope the child is placed on the at risk register"

Really? I think that's an over-reaction at this point. There are very specific criteria to place a child in the at risk register, and requesting clarification or change to a legal document isn't on the list of criteria.

Ereshkigal · 07/06/2018 20:46

No one's going to flame you. People have explained why they don't see it as the same.

user546425732 · 07/06/2018 20:43

I got to peak trans a while ago but, you know what, I can't get bothered about this. He's had the surgery and is legally a man and what difference does it make to other people who aren't involved. It's no different to babies having two mothers or two fathers.

Off to don my asbestos suit now.

WidowWadman · 07/06/2018 20:42

The parent being recorded as father but not as mother is not obliterating any biological link though is it? And neither is there any evidence that the father will not discuss their medical history with their child or the reason why there is no mother recorded on the certificate.

And since the father clearly is living as a man anyway I can't see any confusion arising from documentation showing just that.

RebelRogue · 07/06/2018 20:42

@WidowWadman do gay men pretend they carried a baby in their male womb for 9 month and then gave birth to the baby?

"Here is daddy with a bump"
"Here is daddy after he gave birth to you"
"Here is you and daddy on the maternity ward"

Or completely deny it happened at all and the baby arrived magically by stork.Male stork of course.

pombear · 07/06/2018 20:37

Widowwadman. There's a huge difference between 'loving parents' regardless of whether they're adoptive, two dads, two mums, and the legal and truthful reality of the genetic and biological trail of where that child originated from.

With two 'fathers' on the birth certificate. How, as an adult child, do you track your biological reality?

There are so many stories out there of adoptive children seeking their mothers - how on earth do you track down that, if the law, and complicit people around you deny that you ever had a biological mother.

If you have two fathers on your birth certificate, is it transphobic to ask which one was the biological mother? Is it transphoboic to try to assess which may past matriarchal genetics down the line?

If this challenge goes through, the biological definition of female mothers loses to identity politics and narcissim.

It pushes boundaries that filter in to so many other parts of life we can't even imagine (we can!) right now.

UnnecessaryFennel · 07/06/2018 20:36

Is it any different to children that are lovingly raised by two gay father's where there is no mother around?

Surely you can see the difference between a situation where there is no longer a mother in the child's life, and a situation that denies the previous existence of a mother at all?

Lifesavingorange · 07/06/2018 20:33

The child will be disadvantaged because their birth certificate will be a lie and because they will spend their entire life being lied to by their mother who claims she is their father. Unbelievable that people are actually defending this or pretending it’s no big deal.

Ereshkigal · 07/06/2018 20:33

I know perfectly well what it means. What do you think it means?

WidowWadman · 07/06/2018 20:32

I don't think "gaslighting" means what you think it means.

Ereshkigal · 07/06/2018 20:30

It's not about the mother not being around. It's about the child having a right to know that they have a mother and not be gaslighted about it by narcissists.

Ereshkigal · 07/06/2018 20:26

I'm really not careless of women's or children's rights at all, so you're wrong on that front.

I think you certainly are on this point at least and I perceive you are on others from the tone you've taken on other threads. And that Picasso was pretty spot on actually.

I don't expect you to agree so I see little point in continuing this specific exchange.

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