What would it look like?

I note that a lot of our recent incomers are from over the pond. I find this quite heartening. Obviously our reach and influence is rather broad.

MN as a global bastion of critical thought.

I read U.K. Press religiously. This forum has been written about in multiple publications ( Guardian, Mail, etc.)

I wouldn't believe everything you read in the uk media

They lie almost as much as US media

"I've got so much in common with you ladies what with my ladydick and all."
No you haven't.

It's hard to find an easier target than my community.

Absolute nonsense. This is a movement - both here in the UK and stateside - that is headed by class-privileged middle-aged white males and bourgeois students who have the social capital to get policy-influencing jobs. There has never been a liberation movement made up of society's most influential before - and we can see this by the speed at which they are trashing women's rights, which are fragile.

Yes, there is a small subsection of the trans community uniquely vulnerable in the US - the non-white male trans involved in prostitution. Since this is the small part of the community at heightened risk, you'd think the activists would put them front and centre of the liberation activity - criminalising punters, increased police protection, etc. Instead, the suffering of this small subgroup just has its murder stats appropriated by people who are safer than the average. I find this vile.

British women are campaigning to retain their rights. That you conceptualise this as a negative campaign against your rights rather than a positive campaign in favour of our rights says a lot more about you than you realise.

And when trans women identify with all that stereotyped display of femininity and say they're women. Well what do you expect? It's clear to us that trans women are generally identifying with the paraphernalia of femininity rather than with womanhood.

If you truly think transpeople are not judged for not conforming to societies norms... wow

Did anyone say that? of course this happens - as does the judging of women and men who aren't trans if they don't conform to gender-based 'norms'. Gender-critical feminists are on the side of fighting against being judged for not conforming to societal norms. Actually, many of us would rather demolish most of these societal norms entirely.

I guess I'm letting the side down by not being measured, but it's hard not to given the above recent situation. It was Baroques comment. Anyway, the op needs to think about how changes to self-Id would affect the safety of others as well as his group.

Sorry if if that's blunt but that's basically one of my arguments against self-Id. To protect the privacy and dignity of pubescent girls in their underwear from male-bodied persons.

I say this as someone with a close young teen relative who was recently the victim of indecent exposure on a quiet street when alone. The police did a fantastic job, and there were 6 girls who testified to the same. He was found guilty but not imprisoned. What is to stop this man going to Top Shop tomorrow and Perving on young girls in their underwear?

The anger I was referring to was in regards to proposed self identification law in the U.K.

The proposed law would lead to reductions in the effectiveness of a specific bit of UK legislation - the equality act. It would lead to males being able to access female spaces. That includes men who are not trans but would simply exploit the legislation to do harm. To women and to transwomen. it will not make transwomen safer.
It will also lead to significant degradation of the safeguarding rules for children. Most of not all of those rules were brought in in response to specific and very serious crimes against children. Those rules are critical in keeping children safe. All children, regardless of gender or sex.

That is why people are concerned. Currently trans people ARE protected in law. That equality act has transgender status as a protected characteristic.

Nobody on this board that I’ve seen has ever advocated for the legal rights that trans people have to be removed. They are however very concerned about womens rights being removed.

Yes. When my daughter tries on fashions with her friends on a weekend, I don't want some middle aged guy in a dress perving over the curtain.

Where is the anger please? All the posts on this thread are polite and measured. Please do point out specifically where you see anger.

The law needs to accomplish the following:

1. Retaining sex based segregation where needed and retaining sex based protections for women and girls
2. Retaining safeguarding procedures for children

1. Ensuring that the law is clear and does not lead to women’s rights and protections being eroded or rights conflict

How to do that has been expressed eloquently above. All I’d like to say is that this is a two part question:

1. What should the law achieve?
2. In practice how would that be done?

Is there any suggestion or concept on this thread you disagree with OP? It all seems fair and balanced to me.

bewildered

My friend has a trans daughter, , she and i are concerned that self ID could mean that when her daughter has problems in a pub or bar that she is unable to seek refuge anywhere without the man following her

We both remember days of hiding in the toilets from particularly persisit men and her daughter in theory wont get to do that

Women and girls need and want sex segregated spaces. I want the law to recognise that fact.

live in the USA, and here at least in the age of Trump, I think every facet of the LGBT is in for a hurt. Pessimism seems to be everpresent

Completely agree

Oh yes Mrs, sorry not to mention you too (and any others). There were so many elaborate, innovative, reasoned, fairminded responses to the original question, that I didn't even bother to contribute. It would have seemed churlish and unnecessary to offer my own two penneth.

How come you saw anger (which post which line).

"I see many posts regarding anger at current proposals, but not much on what you would like passed"

See, this is weird to me OP - the way I read the thread above, people have been completely crystal clear on what they want passed in the UK. They literally could not spell it out more. Some even suggested names for the acts. I'm not seeing anger or vitriol, just calm logic, and concern for every group involved.

hang on. quite a large part of your community are middle class, middle aged white men.

it's extremely easy to find people who are treated with a great deal more prejudice than this cohort.

I see the rise transgenderism as a symptom of this. "Conforming to prescribed norms" it seems to me is what it is all about. It's very regressive.

So what do you think could happen @Bewilderednow? That protects women's rights and trans rights. Recognizing that women have been oppressed for millennia because of men's power over our biology and we have moved over a LOT.

I'm also really curious what brings a young American trans person to a UK parenting website's feminism section...

Bewilderednow
Do you have a proposal that you think would work for you but not mean that my 9 yr old daughter might have to use the changing room at swimming (no cubicles) with a penis?
(If you dont understand why that is an issue for me I am happy to explain )

The council barely has the money to keep the rubbish collection going - refurbing the changing rooms will not happen.

You have my utmost sympathy for Trump

Well you were given some very detailed answers tonight, which I thought were mostly coherent and, between them, have the makings of a government policy.
Blood, barack and posy were most eloquent imaginative and fair minded.

My reading of the situation is that the LGB were making great strides, but that the T is now undermining all progress, being, as it is, in direct conflict with the L and the G. The Ls have realised this very quickly, being as they are on the sharp end of 'why won't you sleep with my ladydick, you bigots', but the Gs are yet to reach the same conclusion, having not experienced similar pressure, and showing a brotherly solidarity to their T pals, and not a little glee in the golden opportunity to put uppity women in their place.
However, before too long I expect the G to notice the direction of downward travel for this little episode and make a pragmatic decision to part company with the T, no hard feelings etc.