Paris Lees interviewed by Nick Robinson on Radio 4 now on.

Thanks for the tip.

'PL in response witters on about the questions not being legitimate but young people get it and the old ones will be dead soon.'

What a nasty piece of work Paris is.

But as there's no GRC I don't know why

Sht I'm going to get deleted too

Careful on the PL here. PL has managed to get h* entire non-sparkle biographical details off tinterweb and mentioning h* sex is brave and stunning verboten.

Oh and I gasped again when PL said in the future 'this will be a paediatric issue'. NR could have pursued that IMO.

Paris Lees was very slippery and manipulative, and I don't think NR pinned PL down very much, though an awful lot better than most. I did gasp when PL said 'people like you have always had the voice' - I mean I know what PL meant of course, but given that NR spent MONTHS of hard labour rehabilitating his voice after surgery for lung cancer gave him a vocal cord palsy, it was a particularly self-centred comment. No doubt PL would say a lot about how much work they had to do on their own voice feminisation, but it's a very different thing, working on a normal voice to use it differently, and working with a disordered voice. Especially when you are trying to present yourself as totally OK on a national broadcasting station at the time as NR has been ever since. The depth of a disability like that is really poorly understood, in fact NR said in his autobiography that his voice damage was the only thing in his cancer experience that made him cry. He still doesn't have a 'normal' voice. He just never, ever chooses to raise it outside very specific settings - no doubt it's partly about toxic masculinity and not showing weakness, but it is also his professional choice and a perfectly legitimate one.

But PL bashing away at 'the law will make no difference' 'it's already the law' (no it isn't, I think PL was deliberately conflating EA protection against discrimination and the GRA) just once 'it's only about paperwork' - and the way they would deflect any specific question to broader 'just want to be understood' 'don't focus on genitals' 'don't treat me as a data point' issues, and narrow any broader question to 'what about violent women' was infuriating. Though PL did make some good points about NR's use of 'some say' questions which are a bit crap really.

The long version is worth a listen to if you have time.

Interesting that in the bit following the interview, NR said something along the lines of, "when I asked you questions about what feminists and other people are concerned about, I thought you would say we need to talk about the concerns but actually you were angry that I was asking the question" and PL in response witters on about the questions not being legitimate but young people get it and the old ones will be dead soon.

That point by NR will go over very well with listeners to that programme and any reasonable person really.

And his response when PL asked if NR thinks PL is a woman was extremely telling. Of course he doesn't think PL is a woman, he's just being polite. I wonder if India Willoughby was there if IW would have screamed "I'M A REAL WOMAN" at him.

People have been taking the piss out of trans people for 60 years

That isn't nice and I can accept it can be damaging. But how can people take the piss out of trans people while at the same time denying they exist? It sounds a bit Schrödinger to me. (Although I suppose quantum mechanics is an improvement over religious ideology.)

, I don't think it's just past generations unfortunately.

What stood out was in the beginning part of the interview PL describes the bullying (/abuse?) at home by her father, having all "girly" toys thrown out and being ridiculed for being basically a gender non conforming gay boy.

This story echos that of Jackie Green and many other angry TRAs.

I really feel for these children.

Something really terrible has happened in society over the past generation that has doubled down on gender roles, stereotypes, and lead so many (young) people to believe they need to mutilate their healthy bodies to fit in better.

Transpeople are become more visible and talking more about themselves and their experiences in the media - which is great. But at the same time expect women not notice or talk about how our bodies and experiences are so very different.

Paris, yes you are a person you exist, you are trans you exist. I don't have to believe you are a biological adult human female for you as a person to exist, you can't make me or anyone else believe what we don't. Paris you are not a Jedi Knight that waves your arm or a a fairy that waves a magic wand, or an Emperor wearing special clothes. You are a standard mediocre unique person like everyone else, who exists.

Anyone can find anything amusing, you can't stop that Paris, there will always be someone laughing at you for a variety of reasons in life, just like everyone else, it's part of being human.

I think PL seemed surprised that Constantly repeating the same old argument didn’t make NR agree. Well done Nick.

Fluff journalist get to look good, be outraged and tell people off for wrong thought. Paris gets to play poor me and be the Emperor.

I will look at the propaganda thread, I don't know how it is broken down.

PL hasn't worked out that the fluff journalists are on primetime daytime TV, they are all about emotions. Victoria Derbyshire is the Middle-class This Morning, they play the game Paris is very good at winning.

Nick Robinson plays a different game, he plays you try to bullshit me, see what you can get away with and see what you can't, his guests know this and play along. Nick is confused that Paris is outraged and Paris is outraged as Paris is used to winning with fluff journalists like Owen Jones.

PL on women's prisons: women kill women so are you saying women should be banned from women's prisons?

PL on changing rooms: ban lesbians?

PL: is it right to say black people shouldn't be Uber drivers?

PL: is it right to say gay people shouldn't be teachers?

It's a common tactic of TRA - instead of justifying why sex segregation is wrong, they use other people in made up scenarios. Of course it's not right to stop black people becoming taxi drivers - but nobody is campaigning for that, similarly for lesbians in changing rooms.

It's pretending to illustrate the absurdity of excluding TIM from women's spaces, but all it does is change the subject. It is a tactic to avoid talking about male violence.

I truly hope so. They've been terrified or complicit so far.

How come this didn't get more publicity at the time? It's a very clever interview

This was exactly the tactic used at my mandatory trans trg at work. Transwoman tells assembled entirely female room how awful it is being dysphoric, but how being misgendered is even more awful and states her aim is for everyone to leave the session truly believing she is a woman. She bottled though and didn’t outright ask at the end. Good for NR. PL is obviously way too used to people lying in an attempt to be nice. No one believes a man can ever magically become a woman. But being polite and trying not to hurt their feelings has got us into this fecking mess. Glad people are starting to stop short of knee jerk affirmation now.

Rowan I still don't see wh discussing what is the the the biggest threat to women's rights