Paris Lees interviewed by Nick Robinson on Radio 4 now on.

Welcome from me too, Wine.

Thanks for the welcome y'all. I find these conversations really enlightening and interesting.

I'm totally sticking around!

WineGummyBear, I agree with you the root problem of all this is toxic masculinity.

I think its possible to have compassion for those TIMs (the young, homosexual kind like Paris and Monroe Bergdorf) who I see as victims of toxic masculinity, while getting even more angry with those TIMs I see as perpetrators of toxic masculinity (the older, autogynephilic kind).

I don't think compassion for the homosexual TIMs necessarily gets in the way of fighting for the rights of women and girls, because I don't believe changing society the way TRA's want will actually make the homosexual TIMs any happier.

I too think about Quentin Crisp a lot; however, he had the insight to understand that his dream was impossible.

Paris isn't an individual minding their own business. They have been given a huge platform to redefine woman, often without being challenge.

If we can't talk about the damage individual TRA are doing to women and girls, we will never identify the problems and stop it happening.

Focussing on individuals and getting angry is a mistake. It's a whole culture that needs attention

Paris Lees isn't any old individual.

Paris Lees is a propaganda machine for the trans movement, and uses their story to elicit sympathy to stop people criticising trans rights ideology - a tactic that didn't work with Nick Robinson.

In this context, it's absolutely fair enough to focus on the Paris as an individual.

Your female socialisation is showing. We do need to criticise some people. It might hurt their feelings. There is too much at stake here to worry about Paris's hurt feelings - it's that kind of thinking that got us into this mess.

Welcome to FWR on Mumsnet :) Keep posting, keep questioning, it's a great place to be to get to grips with this issue.

I doubt Paris wants things any other way, Paris is happy playing poor me and being an Emperor destroying the lives of women and children. Paris will not put in the work to resolve trauma.

Hello wine! Welcome!

My view is that we have enough to do defending and protecting women from misogyny. Yes, it's sad. But there are plenty of men who can help Paris. I don't see why it's women's work.

I was new myself not long ago and now I'm hooked.

Long time lurker here. Think this is my first post on feminist boards. Yikes, feels like a big step.

@Pratchett. I take your point but I don't think the solution is to shed our empathy and understanding.

The more I look at this topic the more I see that it's ALL about toxic masculinity causing a problem where there shouldn't be one.

Focussing on individuals and getting angry is a mistake. It's a whole culture that needs attention.

I've noticed I'm a part of the problem too in my own small way. When I bought clothes for my sons recently they were all blue and green. Why can't I put them in pastel shades?

Paris Lees is just a person. She didn't conform and her experiences drove her to the wrong conclusion about what she is. But if I, a gender-critical feminist don't put my sons in pastel clothing look how massive the issue is. (Obviously I would put them in pastel clothing if they wanted it! It's never come up)

Oh crap. I wanted my first post to be a good one and I'm not satisfied with this. Never mind. Onward and upward.

Paris also skips over the bit when they went to prison for two years for beating a man so badly during a robbery that he nearly died. So while I have immense sympathy for a horrible childhood, that's a very male pattern way of lashing out at a cruel world. www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/15/transgender-coming-of-age-paris-lees

That's an old article. Paris now claims they were in prison for 8 months.

I too have compassion. Unlike you I would run for the hills if near Paris. There is no empathy from Paris for anyone other than Paris.

And here's our female socialisation again,

Not excuse, understand.

And compassion is a quality I value in both male and female: why would we ever want to lose it? Being a doormat: no; allowing children to be targeted for sterilisation and surgery: no, but compassion is never a negative emotion, it is, however, extremely important what you do with it.

Dad is responsible for what Dad did to Paris the child. Paris is responsible for what Paris the adult does.

Paris is no longer a child.

I agree, but seeing yourself objectively is hard for everyone. Especially if feelings from childhood are repressed and you havent even got the insight to appreciate that fact. I very much doubt that Paris would agree with any of my analysis. She is is looking under the lampost for her keys, even though they aren't there.

And here's our female socialisation again, wanting to explain, excuse and help a person who is systematically campaigning to dismantle your rights.

I don't know why but this reminds me of Quentin Crisp who said he so yearned for a "real" man to love him, but simultaneously he also believed that a real man wouldn't love an effeminate homosexual: an impossible and contradictory fantasy

Probably very true for many TIM.

Senua

Well, that's what you are supposed to feel.

Yes, superficially you are right Senua, but I, unlike my Catholic upbringing, don't believe in original sin, and believe that whatever horrible characteristics one has in adulthood can be explained, often by mistreatment by others. This is not to condone bad behaviour, but I value such academic disciplines as psychology because we are never going to have a world full of happy respectful people if we can't work out what's going so wrong with so many of us!

Paris is no longer a child. Paris makes a choice every day to continue a crusade against women because Dad removed toys, instead of getting therapy for trauma.

When PL said that the toys were taken away 'and presumably given to a girl' it kind of jarred in my head, but I didn't make this connection myself. Very interesting insight. The interview actually gave a pretty good perspective on why Paris, who calls themself a woman, seems to dislike women so much. That's quite some personal conflict to resolve.

Yes, it's pretty massive isn't it.

I also didn't make that connection at the time. The understandably resentful, possibly angry, feelings Paris must have had when they thought about the girl being given their precious things. As to blaming her dad for this act, it's actually asking a lot of a child to direct their anger at the appropriate person ie often a parent, as it uncovers a terrifying level of vulnerability for a child - that of not being parented. It may be that said imaginary girl or girls in general could have been an easier recipient of Paris' disdain, and that we are all actually still paying for these unresolved conflicts. It makes me view Paris very differently, as I couldn't understand before how you could so hate women whilst simultaneously wanting to be one.

I don't know why but this reminds me of Quentin Crisp who said he so yearned for a "real" man to love him, but simultaneously he also believed that a real man wouldn't love an effeminate homosexual: an impossible and contradictory fantasy. I'll never forget the last line in his autobiography "The Naked Civil Servant": “I stumble towards my grave confused and hurt and hungry."

I think if I ever happened to speak to Paris I would approach debate from a completely different angle having listened to that interview.

I thought PL's account of [PL's] childhood was heartbreaking.

Well, that's what you are supposed to feel. Start the interview with everyone feeling sorry for you and therefore not wanting to add to the misery. Clever.

I don't know the detail of PL's life. Do other family members remember this incident the same way or are we reliant on PL's version?

Agree with terf. In short had, allowing your son to be the boy that plays with babies is a whole lot better than pretending your. son is female to allow him to play with barbies.

Terfinginthevoid, the TIM who come across as most at peace with themselves are those who - like Miranda Yardley - know full well they're men and acknowledge it, but find presenting as women helps their dysphoria.

The non-dysphoric TIM with paraphilias are the most aggressive, and I'm sure this is because they know they're lying about everything - largely to conceal their true motives.

I heard about this when the podcast came out, didn't listen to it, and to my shame was critical of NR for doing an interview with a transwoman without an opposing gender critical viewpoint.
Having listened to the broadcast yesterday, I thought he did a good job.

I thought PL's account of h** childhood was heartbreaking. If 'transness' really was a thing, rather than a way of coping with imposed sex stereotypes and homophobia, wouldn't there be some transgirls who had been encouraged to play with barbies and wear tutu's by their accepting parents and still wanted to change sex?

It reaffirmed my belief that the correct treatment for trans identifying children is to support them in being themselves as the sex they actually are, and working to ensure society accepts them as their actual sex not encourage the false belief they can change sex.

I don't think PL is actually capable of debating the issues, nor is Monroe Bergdorf, because they are too fragile. They are fragile because their personal narrative and identity is built on something they must at some level know is a lie.

When PL said that the toys were taken away 'and presumably given to a girl' it kind of jarred in my head, but I didn't make this connection myself. Very interesting insight. The interview actually gave a pretty good perspective on why Paris, who calls themself a woman, seems to dislike women so much. That's quite some personal conflict to resolve.

I spent too much time thinking about Paris last night.

It's not just about a girl getting the toys, women got everything Paris wanted. Paris does not understand that women get lots of disadvantages in life. Paris is just focused on their own loss and how to make Paris feel better about it. Paris is punishing women for what Dad did to Paris.

Of the TIM I know, one had appalling dysphoria and everyone feels very sympathetic about it. The other is a classic AGP and people are sorry for his ex-wife and DC. I don't think either is at all happy.

I wonder if people can ever really appreciate before they commit to transition how very limited many TIM/TIF find themselves in terms of partners. If, as TRA seek, there's an end to gatekeeping, and more and more transition without extensive counseling, there will be increasing numbers of people who find themselves unable to find a partner and unprepared for this eventuality.

Looking at Twitter it seems there's a lot of comments from people who think that Lees handled it well and Robinson was out of line... mostly from general listeners as well, not those who appear to be on one side of the debate.

I think if I was a casual listener with no background knowledge I would have been entirely disposed to feel great sympathy with PL too, and wonder why NR wasn't being more accommodating of the courteous pretence that PL is a woman - no one could fail to be moved by the story of that unhappy little boy. It's a shame there was no mention of the wider implications of the TRA need for validation, and the cost to women and girls.

Paris... views us as the little girl who was gifted their childhood toys. That by taking away things women value, somehow it makes the toy incident better for Paris to live with.

When PL said that the toys were taken away 'and presumably given to a girl' it kind of jarred in my head, but I didn't make this connection myself. Very interesting insight. The interview actually gave a pretty good perspective on why Paris, who calls themself a woman, seems to dislike women so much. That's quite some personal conflict to resolve.