Feminism and trans rights, please enlighten me

And, in response to the relative importance of the feelings of men who want to feel pretty vs. women feeling threatened in spaces where they need to be safe - nope, sorry.

I might like to feel pretty, but Monday morning is relentless. As is the passage of time. Feeling pretty is a luxury in this context, and expendable. As per my previous distinction between the fully transitioned and the intact male, this does not refer to the former. Once transitioned, things change. Fully intact men who want to feel pretty can do so in their own time and space, and at their own expense. Validation of attractiveness is not something that's owed anyone, ever, for whatever reason.

Floeer

Indeed, in fact it's worth repeating.

The vast majority of transwomen keep their penis

There is no requirement to have genital surgery to acquire a gender recognition certificate in the UK

When I first read about that along with

The vast majority of transwomen keep their penis

for the first time I was shocked, I do not think that the majority of people realise this

Cornish it feels like this conversation is at cross purposes because your starting point is different from most other posters.

One starting point is that the word 'women' refers to biological females (xx) , (and that sex based segregation is in place in certain, very limited circumstances to protect this group from male violence).

The other starting point is that the word woman refers to anyone who says they feel like a woman (and biological sex is irrelevant to this, thus woman/man based segregation becomes irrelevant).

I wonder if it would be a useful thought exercise to start from the other definition and see where that leads you? Maybe that would help, not in necessarily agreeing, and changing what you think, but perhaps in understanding how other reach such different conclusions?

CornishPasty82
What do you mean by 'fully transitioned'? The vast majority of transwomen keep their penis. If they have had surgery, it usually means facial feminisation and/or breast augmentation. If someone has a penis, they are not a woman.

There is no requirement to have genital surgery to acquire a gender recognition certificate in the UK.

Yes, Cornish, I have no problems accepting the fully transitioned.

In regard of stats, both you and I know that we don't even have reliable stats on sexual assault that doesn't explicitly involve transwomen. There is plenty anecdotal evidence of continued sexually aggressive behaviour - some earlier posts provided links to online repositories of such reports that are being put together to build banks of knowledge on the subject.

Tampon-collection isn't a crime. It's gross, but no one has gathered official stats. Men finding sexual gratification through validation of their identity from attention (in a similar fashion to what exhibitionists seek) from women in shelters or prisons would, if granted the legal rights, also not be committing a crime. But could you say that it would be ethical?

My own case study of one suggests that way more men that we'd like to think will easily dismiss women's integrity to get their kicks.

There are deeper issues regarding whose concerns matter more at play, both in regard of what is researched, and the wider debate.

Is it possible to be a feminist and support transgender rights?

Yes, as you'd see from the many other posts on this board asking this very same questions. Most of the transpeople who post here are feminists too.

But it appears you only want to try and disprove any argument you're presented with, like many of the "genuinely interested first-time posters on this subject". If I'm wrong and you are genuine, then I apologise but I've seen too many use this tactic to goad MNetters.

I have yet to see convincing evidence (NOT single case studies) on large cohorts demonstrating that transwomen pose a significantly larger risk to biological women than other biological women

I doubt very much any exists because transpeople pose no greater threat to women than any other person on the planet. That is not the argument. The argument is that self-id takes away women's rights to question who uses women-only spaces and that sex offenders who say they are transwomen to move prisons are a threat to female inmates. It is not about people who identify as trans. It is about protecting women from those men who will abuse it. Those men. Not those transwomen. As you say yourself, transwomen could be at risk from some men too and yet it's feminists who are seen as the enemy.

Asking for "proof" about something that is not the argument is a classic Strawman trick.

As I read what I typed, a really obvious thing with this debate is how it simultaneously centres and obscures men.

It centres the feelings of men who want to feel pretty and be close to feminine things, and obscures the real risks posed to women by men looking for sexual gratification without the willing participation of women.

There's obviously nothing new under the sun.

Interesting point cubanoak, but arguably the safety of transwomen is at risk as well (if they were placed in a male prison)

But that's not women's problem to solve. It certainly isn't a woman in prison problem.

The solution to male on male violence isn't to stop sex segregation for women.

OP in your case, it appears to come down to an acceptance that 'trans women are women'. Unfortunately, for them, and for born women (i don't like to have to clarify that, but there you go), we only have their word for it. It's not enough for me, particularly in a situation such as prisons, where the inmate population is self-selectedly generally less honest and more likely to behave criminally. So, let's just stick with sex segregation, and have a third space for transwomen if necessary. I think there may be less dishonest applications from males wanting to transfer to the transwomen's wing than we see trying to get into women's prisons.

Trans women have no rights to enter womens spaces or to use services they don't need. The spaces are arranged by biological sex.

The majority of trans identifying males don't have surgery and remain entirely male.

Go fight for unisex spaces and service. The women who feel comfortable using them will do so.

(Apologies for autocorrect gremlins - it feels weird to say 'I meant to type used tampons/towels', but here we are.)

It may be hard for the OP to understand the need for sex segregated spaces if they are in the enviable position of never having been violated by a man. This is something few women enjoy, and they may be speaking - as people generally tend to when unable to understand the concerns of a specific group - from a position of privilege. Certainly not one I begrudge them, but it is rare in women.

The issue for me, at least, it not about fully or mid-and-on-track transitioned transwomen (or transmen). For all relevant intents and purposes, they have committed to their chosen gender, and it makes sense, at least to me, to accept and treat them as such.

Self-ID clearly opens the category of 'woman' (or 'man', but men do not generally feel threatened by women) to people who have no intent to transition, and who need to give no other evidence than their say-so, to men looking for sexual gratification from women in situations not intended for this type of interaction. The documented range of transgressions ranges from gratuitous uses tampon/towel fetishes (gross but not necessarily harmful to women) to hidden cameras (and, yes, more physical forms of sexual assault in extreme cases), but perhaps most importantly through seeking validation from 'captured audiences' of vulnerable women, if self-ID MtF autogynephiles
gain legal grounds for working in women's shelters or being transferred to female prisons.

The focus should probably not be on 'genuine' trans people, but on the leeway changes in law would give to men who would lie to abuse vulnerable women. And this is where the privilege of not having experienced abuse might come in. It is patently obvious to those of us who have that many men will lie and deceive to do so. I have not lived an excessively adventurous life, and I have encountered many; most in passing, some insidious and in close quarters.

Men with a sexual interest in women will lie and deceive to gain the access they crave, and display a surprising degree of persistence in doing so.

I need no other reason to oppose self-ID.

However I am still not convinced that men identifying as women pose a risk to women in those places.

There are TIM in UK prisons guilty of sexual attacks on women. The risk is there.

If you are saying that the risk is too low to be significant, why does this set of males get to be in women's spaces but not other low risk of sex offending males?

male feelings are not equivalent to female safety

Also, the men in the recent ManFriday event objected strongly to the women coming into their space. I found this heartening, that it isn't just women who want to preserve their dignity & privacy, not sure if safety was much of an issue in this instance, but it is for women. Apart from those who don't get this.

Do you really not see why sex segregation exists?

cornish

Andrea Albutt, president of the Prison Governors Association, told The Mail on Sunday: “I have seen women feeling very threatened by transgender prisoners’ presence . . . To put men who declare they are women into women’s prisons would be very damaging.”
From
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/governors-fight-trans-inmates-in-women-s-jails-vg0kpv5q0?shareToken=2a1a45ad952bd5af1fe2bbe36944321c

Its up to people who want to eradicate them to admit why they dont fight for a third unisex space.

This.