Feminism and trans rights, please enlighten me

CornishPasty82 You have stated that you don't see the need for single sex spaces and services. The reasons include safety and privacy.

You cant provide any evidence mixed sex spaces are safer for women as they aren't, they are associated with an increased risk of harm.

Its not up to us to provide evidence to convince people why we need to keep them. There are women who want single sex spaces and services. Thats why we have them.

Its up to people who want to eradicate them to admit why they dont fight for a third unisex space.

52 male born trans in sex offender or max security prisons - from the MoJ.

Bloody hell.

Now that one IS a derailer - even I can confidently call that one!

OP I'm v gender critical in the sense of not accepting the behaviours shoul din any way be dictated by one's biological sex, and definitely a feminist.

However, I do have trans people in my life to various degrees, and often find myself defending their life choices on this board.

I'm still not sure where I stand on self ID but I am pretty firmly trans inclusive.

Cornish
Thanks upstart I guess you are right! Perhaps I don’t understand the need for single sex spaces

I think this is the crux of the matter. If sex is of no consequence to you in relation to sex based provision, you are bound to find responses on this board baffling. However, upon realising this you may also realise that the interests commonly expressed on this board are neither anti-trans or transphobic, they are about trying to preserve the right to single sex spaces.

Oh please do link to another Cursed E Medium article to tell us why we are so wrong OP.

Floeer here it is. Fair Play For Women estimated it from the evidence they could find int he public realm. They were accused of making it up.

But - the FOI request just came out, from the Ministry of Justice, and what do you know? Fair Play's estimates were spot on.

This is male pattern violence. Female prisoners do not show this kind of offending profile. This shows that transwomen - as far as crime is concerned - are not the same as women.

OP hopefully someone will be able to link it - I recall seeing a link which described the percentage of transwomen prisoners being jailed for sexual crime, it was on par with men (so grossly above that of women). I've been following this debate quite a bit recently as previous I was a liberal feminist that didn't see the issue of trans or self-ID - just blindly took it for the right thing to be in support of as falls under the LGB umbrella etc.

Thanks upstart I guess you are right! Perhaps I don’t understand the need for single sex spaces.

You really don't understand why prisons, for example are segregated by sex?

Thanks upstart I guess you are right! Perhaps I don’t understand the need for single sex spaces.

Yes it would appear that way!

Perhaps I don’t understand the need for single sex spaces

Maybe this is the issue then.

Do you accept that the vast majority of sex crime is committed by men, and that women (as a group) are at risk of assault from men (as a group)?

I have yet to see convincing evidence (NOT single case studies) on large cohorts demonstrating that transwomen pose a significantly larger risk to biological women than other biological women.

Perhaps you can explain why they wouldn't be expected to pose the same risk as men? Which is much higher than women?

And link to some "convincing evidence"? Thanks so much in advance.

CornishPasty82 that list is useful as the TRA line is that women are at no risk from letting transwomen into women's spaces.

You don't need "crime stats on very large cohorts" to prove the existence of something. A list is enough. The list proves it exists, it is a risk.

What it doesn't prove is how big that risk is. But, we know from other stats that 98% of sex crimes are committed by men.

Once we've shown that men and transwomen are actively committing crimes against women, surely the burden of proof should be on the transwomen to prove they're not a risk* not the women and children to prove they're being assaulted?

• (if they can prove such a thing, I don't think they can prove they're not a risk as transwomen have male pattern violence)

You don't understand why there are sex specific spaces and services, so start your enquiry there.

Its irrelevant whether you believe or understand or not; there are women who do understand why they want single sex spaces, and you can explain why its so urgent to get rid of them.

I worked out a while ago that given the estimated reporting rates and conviction rates in the UK, that for every one sex crime conviction represents over 100 more sex crimes that have been unreported / not reached conviction.

This

that's a lot of women and children harmed before people take notice. I don't understand why anyone would think this is a reasonable course of action.

How many women and children are acceptable as collateral damage? I have asked this before. Never get an answer.

Here is a link to information regarding transwomen who have committed violent and sexual crimes

randomstabbing.tumblr.com/post/144989720467/the-tip-of-the-iceberg-please-add-to-this-list

We are not just making this stuff up - there are hundreds of documented cases - not to mention the fact that women often don't report sexual assaults to the authorities meaning the true amount is likely to be much higher...

I'll just make the same point as someone on Twitter always does:

If a male person chooses to rape a female person, that person has chosen their gender and they have also chosen the gender of the person they raped. I'm afraid they've already self-IDd by using their penis as a weapon of violence.

And this applies whether you are considering sex (bio males rape bio females) or gender (the oppressor man rapes the oppressed woman).

Are women in prisons more likely (adjusted for numbers of course) to be sexually assaulted by a trans woman than by another female inmate?

You're looking at this in the wrong way. This kind of thinking is exactly why women and girls are being put at risk in safe spaces.

As I'm sure you are aware, the vast majority of sexual crimes are committed by men not women. 98% IIRC.

There is no evidence that when someone born and socialised male transitions, that they take on female-pattern violence. In fact the evidence suggests they retain male-pattern violence.

Also, the vast majority of MTF trans keep their genitals intact.

Why do we separate men and women generally, in places where women are naked and/or vulnerable? If that's not obvious to you, let me spell it out: to protect women from sexual assault and pregnancy, to afford women dignity and privacy.

If transwomen have male pattern violence then it is obvious why they should not be in women's prisons, isn't it?

However, if you start from the assumption that transwomen are women in every way, including their pattern of violence, based on political rather than scientific evidence - then you are asking women and children to disprove that by actually being sexually assaulted and managing to be believed and successfully reporting it. Given the low reporting rates for sexual assault, that's a lot of women and children harmed before people take notice. I don't understand why anyone would think this is a reasonable course of action.

And then there's stuff that isn't a crime, but isn't a situation we shoudl create. e.g. would you like to be forced to shower with a criminal with a penis who is attracted to women? Or to sleep in the same cell as them? I wouldn't. Why should other women have to?

Thanks, Hope! Was about to resort to random lyrics, which have been equally irrelevant but more fun to read.

I'm loving ibaker's Socratic approach to sealioning

It's an interesting new approach right enough...all the derailers/trolls/ sea lions constantly evolving like some kind of Pokemon

CornishPasty82
Of course sexual violence is horrific in any form, but if a trans woman poses no more of a risk than any another female inmate, then this argues against the argument than trans women should not attend female prisons.

Transwomen commit sexual crimes at the same rate as men - men commit about 98% of sexual crimes. A female prisoner could become pregnant following rape by a transwoman with a penis.