Feminism and trans rights, please enlighten me

Precisely.

SMG doesn't know what woman, man, trans or genuine means so it's hopeless from the off.

Supermatch's definition of "transwomen" is entirely irrelevant given that it's not the one used by policy makers and the law.

It was more that I didn’t understand what point super match game argues from when they make the TWAW statement. It’s such a nonsense phrase (a bit like ‘60 is the new 40’ or ‘you’re only as old as you feel’ etc).

So no, definitely not relevant to the law but helps when trying to understand the motivation behind people’s posts.

My anus plumbing is the same as any other woman's but only someone with as medical degree would know that

Not just some uneducated transphobes such as yourself

['Because they were born biologically male. Don't be silly. No one is pretending they weren't. But a person can alter enough of their physical and hormonal aspects that they can be considered the acquired sex for most purposes.']

Swallowing estrogen and having a cosmetic surgery isn't what makes a female. There's no amount of 'considering' to be done.

A female is BORN female with the added benefit of being raised into femininity from the MOMENT they're born. A biological male spends ZERO time in a female body and isn't socialized into femininity from the second they're born.

The idea that the addition of breast implants and artificial hormones makes a man more like a woman than like other men is astoundingly sexist.

Certainly for a post op woman with a GRC yes. They are more similar to other women than they are to men.

They are not women, and they are different from women in every cell of their bodies. Because they are male. And women are female.

Because they were born biologically male. Don't be silly. No one is pretending they weren't. But a person can alter enough of their physical and hormonal aspects that they can be considered the acquired sex for most purposes.

But they remain male. They aren't born male and then change to the opposite sex.

Thanks super match for answering. So when you state trans women are women you mean those that have fully transitioned and have a grc?
That makes a bit more sense now.

Supermatch's definition of "transwomen" is entirely irrelevant given that it's not the one used by policy makers and the law.

But it has been looked at on a case by case basis, and it should be in terms of risk. This trans woman was eventually moved to a female facility.

Off the back of a ridiculous press campaign/petition that muddied the wahters a ridiculous amount, inluding stating that Tara was post op when this was a lie.

I am still pretty bitter that I feel for that. I signed that petition, and got a few friends to aswell. It was not until I joined MN that I learnt the truth about it all and realised the position I had put other female prisoners in.

Tara could have been segregated for their own safety if they were concerned about that, but they should have been nowhere near the female population.

Tara was a fully intact male, who had feminized their body somewhat ('SRS' was actually boob job, for example) and had learnt how to do camera angles well enough to pass. In a couple of photos.

I don't think hormones should make a blind bit of difference tbh. If the trans identified male(I use this as 'transgender people' come in many forms, and non-binary males could claim trans status...this way I mean all under the transgender umbrella who are male. I use transsexual woman for post op transwomen) feels unsafe around other males, they should be able to request segregation, like other males can for various reasons. But I don't think moving them to the female estate is a solution that should ever be contemplated.

But thanks for the answer.

On this whole thing too... I would hope that transmen would not be moved to a male prison either, regardless of how much they may want it (though I have never seen a story about transmen wanting into the mens, funnily enough). It would be beyond dangerous.

No you've confused me with someone else. I've said the opposite of that - search my posts.

No bother. I wonder who I mixed you up with.

Thanks super match for answering. So when you state trans women are women you mean those that have fully transitioned and have a grc?
That makes a bit more sense now.

The Tara Hudson transfer was brought about partly because 150,000 signed the petition I wonder if so many would have signed had they known that 'multiple surgeries' referred to silicone tits and acrylic nails, and that Tara liked to boast online about their 7 inch surprise and being a 'shemale'.

Ok, sorry.

Does anyone know the legal position?

Baroque I was answering

TheGoal and WomanLife They did ask me.

I wasn't asking for your opinion. I was asking if anyone knew of the legal position.

Also, 'post op' (again could mean anything) with a GRC is a very small number of males.

If TIM's are women why do they have prostate?

Because they were born biologically male. Don't be silly. No one is pretending they weren't. But a person can alter enough of their physical and hormonal aspects that they can be considered the acquired sex for most purposes.

Most people seem to agree with that. The Tara Hudson transfer was brought about partly because 150,000 signed the petition.

Certainly for a post op woman with a GRC yes. They are more similar to other women than they are to men.

For those that are only hormonally transitioned then that is more of a grey area - I'm not sure. But it has been looked at on a case by case basis, and it should be in terms of risk. This trans woman was eventually moved to a female facility. www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/20/tara-hudson-transgender-prisoner-sues-government

Also I am sure I have seen you arguing for self ID for GRCs?

No you've confused me with someone else. I've said the opposite of that - search my posts. eg.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3263474-Posie?pg=9

SupermatchGame If TIM's are women why do they have prostate?

It's calculatedly vague. Meant to confuse and obfuscate.

Ha - I am so slow at typing that baroquehavoc has pretty much said the same as me! It’s the vague meaning of trans woman that makes it difficult to accept the trans women are women statement.

I could possibly understand the statement “trans women are women” if there was a clear definition of trans woman.

Super match game - do you mean the full scope of “trans” are women (just saying they are for example, would that be enough to be a woman?) or those that have actually transitioned?

You sometimes use the term “genuine trans women” - what is your criteria for genuine? What does that mean for those that are not considered genuine?

I'm querying why a trans woman (medically transitioned etc) should be treated differently from any other woman that has committed a violent crime?

What do you mean by medically transitioned?

Because I see many on this thread saying no to penises, or men attached to them, being in womens prisons. So I assume that you are against this also?

If not, then please explain medically tranitioned, if not meaning post op transsexual.

Also I am sure I have seen you arguing for self ID for GRCs? SelfID would mean even less than the minimal 'gatekeeping' that there is now, and thousands more male people being 'legal women'..regardless of even a diagnosis of sex dysphoria, let alone any medical transition (medical transition is not required for a GRC anyway). And prisons are one of the main areas that WILL be affected by self ID in a very negative way. When 'trans' means everything from fmeinine men, to transsexuals, to crossdressing fetishists, if all of these people can get a GRC and therefor be sent to a womens prison rather than a mans..well..it doesn't take a genuis to know how that will end up really. Even with the gatekeeping involved in the process currently, we have had male rapists in female prisons, offending again. Open the floodgates? It will be carnage tbh.

If not why not?

Because sex matters.

do the people advocating that transwomen be housed in female prisons advocate completely mixed sex prisons?

If not why not?

His sex