Magdalen Berns is back!

Glad you cleared that up, loops.
Discriminatory against women who suffer physically and emotionally but quite clear.

hipster Why would I know better than someone else how they feel? It is up to me to put forward a compelling case for my suffering being greater if I believe it is, and then whoever decides on policies has to judge that.

Angry But why is Ash responsible for that? For her, all that matters is being able to do her job without too much pain and suffering, so she followed the process to enable her to do that. The same way anyone working there could do.

Perhaps if the company get enough individual complaints, they'll find it easier to just change the policy altogether.

Do you think Ash should have just written to HR and asked them to change the uniform policy for everyone? Do you think her one voice would have achieved that? Would it have changed anything for her?

Sometimes you have to act for yourself, because you are the one having to do the job. It's not selfishness, it's self-preservation.

I still think bloody fruit tea is an abomination of disappointed expectations.

Angry I am not speaking for women as a group, I am saying women who are suffering at work have the same rights as anyone else suffering as work, and are required to provide the same evidence of this suffering as anyone else.

You seem quite happy to defend broad generalisations of trans people literally ALL the time on this board though.

Never mind if Ash makes a ton of money, she MIGHT do, so let's act like she does, see she extorts money from children.

Oh she experiences dysphoria from her breasts so wants to have them removed, clearly that means she is encouraging teenage girls to mutilate themselves.

She chose to list the reason for needing special considerations at work as her dysphoria caused by her uniform, let's accuse her of not fighting sexism even though it wasn't the issue that was causing her the most problems.

A woman working with Ash who felt the sexist uniform policy was causing her stress or hardship could go through the exact same process as Ash did and could get the same allowances as Ash did. How is this in any way removing the rights of women in that workplace?

Magdalen pointed that out in the video...

Fixing the sexism inherent in the rules would fix things for everyone. Fixing things for people who find a loophole allowing them to lodge a complaint that HR have to take seriously is a self centered, individualistic approach.

Class analysis, it's what's for breakfast, lunch, and dinner!

Listen to the people who are suffering the most in a given situation

Those who say they are. If you can’t quantify objectively, you can’t make a meaningful comparison; surely you can see there may potentially be a problem there?

Angry depends on the heels I guess, I get crippling foot pain in totally flat shoes and the low heels I got for work actually made it so I could make it through the day. I don't really enjoy wearing them because they make me feel awkward (I walk a bit weird) but they are a necessary evil to enable me to do my job.

Probably different if you're looking at crazy high heels, never tried them tbh as I can't walk at all in them.

I don't know how Ash did 4 years there, people are pretty strong, but also anxiety is a hell of a barrier. This required her to come out at work, which is no easy thing in America.

How is this signing away anyone else's rights, the rights belong to anyone who feels they have a pressing need of an adjustment to a workplace rule, this could be any employee of any sex or gender.

Ash felt the reason she needed the adjustment was because of her dysphoria and worsening mental health, so she used that as a reason on the form. I assume if she felt her need was due to sexism she would have said that, although perhaps she would have received a different response from HR.

Perhaps that is the issue here? Why she had to use her trans identity, not why she did? The legitimacy of sexism as a reason for reasonable adjustments at work.

Again, you are not women as a group and do not have a right to speak for the rest of us. I'm not sure how many different ways there are to say this, we could try French or Spanish if that would help?

dragons Sure if you view the things as oppression. For example, I like wearing dresses, I'd choose to wear a dress even, it's not oppressive to me.

So for me working somewhere that required I wear a dress or skirt wouldn't impact my mental health, and someone who did have their mental health impacted by that should have more of a say than someone who didn't.

Listen to the people who are suffering the most in a given situation, and someone who has to dissociate in order to get through a work day is clearly suffering more than someone who is quite happy wearing a skirt but might prefer trousers that day.

And if Ash really had such a pressing need that was far more pressing than the other women who hate having to perform femininity in order to keep their jobs she wouldn't have been able to manage 4 years of doing just that.

Again, you don't get to sign away the rights of women as a group just because you feel sorry for this particular person and have entirely bought into their narrative.

Heels aren't good for anyone's health.

hipster it wouldn't be me making that decision, unless I was the HR person in charge of that. I'd expect any individual who had a problem with the uniform requirements of a job to apply for an allowance (the way Ash did) and that those applications are assessed on need.

Perhaps if all the other women at the workplace where Ash works put in a complaint about sexist dress-codes then it would change for everyone, but Ash had a more pressing reason (her uniform caused her to experience dysphoria) than just sexism.

Angry I didn't specify trans people, I would defer to anyone who had a more pressing need than me to wear different uniform or have different adjustments at work. This could be due to trans status, physical disability, mental health conditions. I just think that in that instance, my "I just don't really like wearing the uniform even though I can and it causes me no/only minor issues" should take a back seat.

Clearly, my comfort in that situation does matter, but less than someone else's actual health.

I don't love wearing heels, but I am able to wear them without too much suffering, so I shouldn't be the priority when considering uniform requirements.

So X number of people in the office have to wear high heels at anyone time, therefore those suffering mentally get a pass, while those suffering physical and who just don't want to wear heels have to suck it up?

Why is there a priority when wearing clothes for work?

I think it was a smart move for a women to use trans right to get out a sexist dress code, but stop pretending that it's fair that trans get to choose what to wear when women can't.

Yes, I do think that someone who is having their health (mental or physical) negatively impacted by a job they have to do to survive is more important in the here and now than the oppression of an entire class of people.

What do you think oppression is, exactly? Do you think it might impact someone's mental health?

Your own personal consent certainly does not override the non-consent of all the other women who do not consent.

I don't love wearing heels, but I am able to wear them without too much suffering, so I shouldn't be the priority when considering uniform requirements.

The fact that you're happy to defer to trans people in terms of your own rights and needs does not give you the right to do so on behalf of women as a group.

Someone for whom wearing a dress and heels causes dysphoria (which Ash experiences) has more of an immediate need to not wear the dress/heels than someone who just doesn't like wearing them.

Really difficult to quantify/verify the subjective experience in order to reach that conclusion though. How can you be sure?

thebewilderness Yes, I do think that someone who is having their health (mental or physical) negatively impacted by a job they have to do to survive is more important in the here and now than the oppression of an entire class of people.

In the long-term, no it is not more important (I'm one of those equality for everyone feminists). The final destination should be that everyone can choose whether to wear dresses/trousers/ties/shirts/jackets etc... to work regardless of their sex/gender. But in the short-term, people who are suffering more should get their needs met first.

I don't love wearing heels, but I am able to wear them without too much suffering, so I shouldn't be the priority when considering uniform requirements.

Orchid You suspect, but you don't know. None of us know. So it is disingenuous to state that she's got a load of money. She makes some money from youtube, clearly not enough to give up her day job, which she clearly doesn't love and doesn't bring her much joy.

I also doubt that she makes more per hour than someone working minimum wage, there's more to youtube than a 4 minute video. The planning time, the recording time, the editing time, the brand management time, most of that isn't paid. Views make money, and only if youtube deems your content acceptable to advertisers.

Alternatively Ash could have not used her trans status (and she says she isn't a man - she's super speshul gender fluid or something) and just said that the uniform rules were stupid and sexist. Which was the whole point of Magdalen's video.

Ash is making money from her videos. In the last month, she made minimum £300. Max £5k. I suspect it's somewhere between the two. She makes a lot more money per hour than all her fangirls do in their minimum wage jobs, that's for sure.

Someone for whom wearing a dress and heels causes dysphoria (which Ash experiences) has more of an immediate need to not wear the dress/heels than someone who just doesn't like wearing them. Ideally, neither person should be forced to be uncomfortable, but one is a recognised adjustment to enable mental wellbeing and allow that person to continue working.

You want to read that again and make sure you are saying the metal health of this one person is more important than the oppression of women as a class in the workplace?

sleeping well yeh, but for the moment we are lucky, and we have a lot of unions who work hard for workers' rights. Hoping it won't be too much of a disaster after Brexit.

Also, where has Ash ever encouraged teenage girls to cut off their breasts? Or do you think that just because she wants to have her breasts removed (they cause dysphoria) that is enough to encourage teenage girls?

Please give teenagers some credit, they do have their own brains and are not sheep (or if not them, the doctors who assess trans children/teenagers).

Not all people who ID as non-binary experience dysphoria relating to body parts, and not all feel the need to bind/remove their breasts, or remove their penis, or pack. Ash choosing what to do for her own mental wellbeing, with her own body, is not her attempting to encourage others to do the same.

We are lucky to live in the UK where there are regulations Not for long - see Brexit.

Orchid ok, so Ash could be earning around £60k a year...or just under £4k. That's a significant difference in estimates,.

£4000 for a whole year.

£300 a month

Hardly Richie Rich is she?

bewilderness Ofc she could be putting it on, but unless she also puts it on in public IRL too (I mean it's definitely possible, but a lot of effort). It's just as likely that it's just her voice. I had a friend who had a really high-pitched breathy sounding voice, if you couldn't see her you'd assume she was a small child, it was just her voice.

And yes, assuming actual ad revenue works out as what is 'average'. Unfortunately it doesn't actually work like that, and it does require that the content is monetised (which means it must be deemed advertiser friendly). Youtube also makes it really hard for creators to discuss money openly, as it goes against the adsense terms of use.

If Ash were rolling in cash, do you think she'd keep her customer service job, working in America, the land of the non-existent employment laws?

The place where a significant number of states still allow employees to be fired for any reason at all.

We are lucky to live in the UK where there are regulations, and we still have a long way to go even here. But to get on someone's case because they live and work in the US and don't make a fuss about unfair work practices when they could literally be sacked for any reason at all is just blind to the real issues in that country.

Yeh you are right, and so is Magdalen, that Ash shouldn't have HAD to use her trans status to wear comfortable work clothes, and women in her workplace shouldn't have to wear skirts/dresses and heels.

But you can't expect someone with no rights (an employee) to change an entire work environment by themselves, and unions are often heavily discouraged or even expressly forbidden in American workplaces.

Someone for whom wearing a dress and heels causes dysphoria (which Ash experiences) has more of an immediate need to not wear the dress/heels than someone who just doesn't like wearing them. Ideally, neither person should be forced to be uncomfortable, but one is a recognised adjustment to enable mental wellbeing and allow that person to continue working.

I wish America would get some employment rights, it shocks me that employment contracts and sick-pay and disciplinary procedures are still optional in so many workplaces there. It's SO backwards.

if the cutesy presentation succeeds in convincing everyone that aw she's fragile we shouldn't criticize her too harshly then the end result is more girls having their breasts cut off

This.