Are there any bad men in the Handmaid's Tale

I presume the commander knows he can’t havd children. The whole society is an act. Of course he knows the handmaidens have to find another way to get pregnant. It just clearly not his problem. Does he think it’s nicks baby? He doesn’t appear to care one bit.

Pratchet - I'm surprised people who know the book didn't see issues with the first series (though I enjoyed watching it despite of them).

Woke young blokes on Twitter calling radical feminists (aka TERFS) "Aunt Lydia" or whatever after the TV series came out, alongside gifs of the stoning scene says something.

I don’t think anyone thinks the men aren’t evil lol to think that is ridiculous to me. No way does anyone think they are trying to combat fertility. Fs they could try ivf or different male partners because let’s face it, medically they aren’t fucking stupid and know that men can be infertile. It’s religious based oppression using fertility to get people on board. To think anything else is stupidity. And if you’re that stupid you won’t get it anyway.

I think it’s super clear that aunt Lydia is a sadist but she’s not one of the old white men in suits making plans, having meetings and signing laws. She’s not in charge. The men made this world. It’s been crystal clear to me and I’ve never read the book.

SleepIsForTheWeek Not really, its more that there used to be a theme in books and films that certain actions have negative outcomes. Like a kind of modern morality tale.

So for example, one theme is that children that raise animals and become attached to them end up having to kill them - Old Yeller and The Yearling being 2 examples.
Boys that tame a wild animal can expect a happy ending - The Black Stallion.
And in horror films, women who have sex are the ones killed by the serial killer or monster.

or is this to them a fantasy like the walking dead.

To be fair, it is a fantasy like The Walking Dead.

It isn't happening, it's a fictional view that is loosely based on issues that are prevalent today.

It's the same as 1984 - the author has cleverly mixed just enough reality in there to make it believable that it could happen very easily. It's not true.

Until women start becoming infertile & there's a massive population crash, I don't think there's anything to worry about....

I pointed out we already have women in front of Sharia courts in this country where their testimony is only 50% of a man's

Sharia courts is a misnomer. The Muslim Arbitration Tribunal is a form of alternative dispute resolution which operates under the Arbitration Act. It is one of a range of services where Muslims can use ADR to resolve civil matters - the Islamic Sharia Council is another.

The decision to refer a civil issue to them must be voluntary, as with all ADR, and at any time a party can withdraw and refer matters to the civil courts.

The Muslim Arbitration Council is an arbitration tribunal operating under English law and the rules of arbitration apply but agreeing arbitration can't be forced. The Sharia Council isn't a tribunal and has no legal authority whatsoever. It is basically the same as agreeing to go before Judge Rinder.

None of the Sharia Tribunals have any right to deal with criminal matters nor can they affect the legal status of a person. A Sharia "divorce" is not a divorce for purposes of UK law. It merely dissolves the religious marriage but if a couple were married in accordance with the civil law of the UK only a civil court can grant a divorce. Sharia Tribunals cannot say they do not recognise a UK divorce.

I think it was implied but I’m not sure I got that entirely either. Econowives were a new concept for me anyway, unless I missed it. I didn’t realise they were grouped like that.

I had completely missed the point that the Handmaids are adulterous, lesbian, somehow "othered" women. Has that been explicit since the start?

I watched the first series with DH who's never read the book and I was pointing out exactly the same sorts of things to him as you OP (surprisingly, it didn't ruin his viewing - the opposite in fact - but that's because I largely managed to constrain myself to post-viewing, non-ranty, discussion over a glass of wine).

I do not see it as women turning against women as a whole or complicit, more that there is few choices. Wife, handmaiden, aunt, servant/slave and death. Fall in line, dehumanise and do as you are told and above all self preservation until a glimmer of hope that a fight back or escape is possible. Which for whatever reason not all viewers are getting. Even here I am assuming most posters are women, does this tv show have the same impact on men and women who don’t see the patriarchy or is this to them a fantasy like the walking dead.

Anyone who is surprised at the role of women as complicit oppressors has only to look at the women who are pro the GRA 'reforms' to see that there are women complicit with men in doing stuff that damages women.

They are all rapists...

There are a lot of men in it who arent rescuers, they are just also the faceless regime so they dont really feature as bad because they dont feature as people. All the guards who drag the women away to be hung, deported, tortured etc etc are doing nothing to try and help any of the women.

Oh and if remember the scene in season 1 of the TV show where June's his and reacts to the curtailment of women's right by saying that its fine because he will protect her? That is the tone of the novel. The men aren't doing it to hurt the women, they do it because it suits them and they are Co Cerne with the practicalities for themselves rather that the reality for women. The women in the other hand know exactly what it is like to be oppressed yet they keep doing it to each other. That is why they come across as such bitches, they are traitors to their sex. This particularly becomes particularly central during the whole janine affair. Are women loyal to the ones who are suffering through it with them? Or are they loyal to their fear?

Um, well the conander RAPED offered. Not sure how you missed that. He was also a patronising fuck. Nkt to mention it is by andarge the men doing all the killing etc. But reason why it doesn't go into depth about how horrible the men are is because the book isn't about men. It is about women and how women oppress each other to please men/hoe women are so terrified of men that they betray their sex to protect themselves.

Spot on analysis AskAuntLydia, spot on.

Yes the Aunts keep the machine running, and the men would leave the day to day control of the women to them. But women can't rank above a man. Thats why I didn't think it was realistic.

Aunt Lydia seemed to be directing the men in the first episode of series 2.

I get the impression from the TV Show that the Aunts are a lot higher up than most of the men we see - drivers, guards, even the Doctors.

They even come across as being quite instrumental in maintaining the regime, the commanders defer to them in some matters.

And why wouldn't infertile women have a vested interest in keeping the "flow" of children going and make sure they had the power to do so?

even without reading the book if you watch this show and don't "get it" then really you are the type of person thst potentially never will

A lot of people will "get" it as much as they got Mad Max (for example) - as an example of a dystopian future that won't happen. A good Drama to watch with a cup of cocoa....

I totally get Pratchet's point. It's very easy to look at the men & think "they're not so bad" but the women, "my God, what bitches".

I don't think much of S2 so far, I'm hoping it picks up or it'll just drop off my radar.

Pratchet I agree with you. We only notice the abusive side of the men because, well because. I think most nice guys watching it could identify with the male characters and gloss over their nasty side, as they do IRL.
Even June's husband dumped his wife to marry her. I thought that was an integral part of the Tale; that what happened to her was a karmic punishment for being a free women?

The most violent men are faceless and generic, the women are the ones shown acting out the violence. You don't get the sense that they are following through the men's orders; Aunt Lydia seemed to be directing the men in the first episode of series 2.
They aren't being apologetic about their violence, so come across badly. Unfeminine. There are women who behave that way, given the opportunity; but they don't often get that opportunity and they usually have to attach themselves to a violent man.

I think the nuances are easy to ignore or miss, (or excuse), just as they are IRL. But if they were blatant it would have dumbed down so far as to be unwatchable.

I don't think the point of literature or media is dumb down until everyone gets the message. You either enjoy it or you don't.

The point is it is perfectly possible to enjoy the Handmaids Tale without "getting it".

Tbh, even without reading the book if you watch this show and don't "get it" then really you are the type of person thst potentially never will

This may or may not be problematic depending on your POV. Depends if you see Handmaids Tale as a gripping drama, or as damning indictment of a patriarchal society.

AnyFucker I agree.

Tbh, even without reading the book if you watch this show and don't "get it" then really you are the type of person thst potentially never will