Are there any bad men in the Handmaid's Tale

I didn't think that. I think June thinks th a about Lydia and was stilltrying to manipulate her just to get any kind of victory. I think the bit where she held Lydia back was to show she has been broken by the destruction of the family just like hers

Ah, that went over my head, is that what that was all about? I did wonder.

How do people know aunt Lydia is a lesbian? I'm watching in the UK but read this thread for spoilers.

I'm only on episode 4 but was starting to wonder whether aunt Lydia was going along with the regime to save herself.

Their power is revealed to be completely and totally dependent on everyone else around them. When everyone else decides to withdraw their compliance, they're finished, as though the power was never really there. It's an awesome sight to witness, in the true sense of the word.

Totally agree AuntLydia

In the uk we are at episode 3
Shit, that's a bugger then! Five more weeks and you will see where it goes.

The many millions of people around the world, throughout history, who have partnered with 15-year-olds were not necessarily "rapists." Any man who has "partnered" with a child too young to consent ARE most definitely rapists.

But there is nothing inherently wrong with women bearing children once they're fertile. as I said, my daughter was fertile at 12. She didn't become a woman as soon as she was fertile, she was (still is) a child.

Would it be OK for her to be raped and impregnated?

I think it bothered me because it seemed a bit blame-y towards the collaborators when I really saw them simply as victims too

But they are victims too. I think that's what's so complex and fascinating about collaboration. That they are victims and perpetrators at the same time and are promised the same benefits and threats.

But there is nothing inherently wrong with women bearing children once they're fertile.

Yes there is. The inherent risks of injury and death to the mother and baby are much, much higher when a mother is very young.

IIIustriousIyIIlogical I meant for the pelvis to finish developing, not the age of consent. I don’t think 14 is too bad anyway, creepy if someone much older had sex with a 14 year old, but just on having sex alone, many do anyway.

Wrt Sharia law - imagine a system where a man's testimony was worth half that of a woman's, where men were socialised to believe their rights were less and that this system was the real authority, where it was not condemned by the country in which you live and you experienced very real consequences within your community if you didn't obey it.
If this was happening to men, there would have been an outcry and it would have been outlawed years ago.
But because it happens to women, it hadn't been outlawed. People who in other circumstances bang on about equality, turn a blind eye to this glaring injustice. And women who were raised to know that women are not less than men, turn themselves inside out trying to justify it!

Some might say it's a bit handmaids tale...

I agree with you Quack that it’s interesting and illuminating to consider the coerced behaviour alongside the small (and not so small) rebellions.

It’s 16 on average though isn’t it?

14 in some European countries.....

I watched the first series, and I think fear drives aunt Lydia. I do think she cares about the girls, but she cares about herself more. She has authority over them, but the men are always in the background. If she lets them step out of line, she's done. She can't take any shit at all, her position relies on total control. I actually dislike the wives more, they have more opportunity to show kindness to the handmaids but don't. Most of them seem to have become quite twisted with bitterness, jealousy and false superiority. I wonder if the aunts or marthas are ever raped?

It seemed quite clear to me that the men were running the show. Trying to work out to catch up on season 2 now.

Apart from the increased risks of maternal death and preterm labour and totally ignoring social implications regarding women’s rights yeah... nowt wrong with it! 🙄

In our culture, 15 is too young because we have much higher expectations for self sufficiency and adulthood. A woman who becomes a mother at 15 or 16 is going to be at an economic disadvantage.

In other cultures, you're ready for adulthood earlier because there's no need for A-levels and university in order to pull your own weight participating in hunting and gathering or agrarian systems.

Obviously, Gilead is a fucked-up society and keeping females ignorant and dependent is a huge part of the way they operate.

But there is nothing inherently wrong with women bearing children once they're fertile. The many millions of people around the world, throughout history, who have partnered with 15-year-olds were not necessarily "rapists."

It’s clear what she meant. Basically in some cultures 15 is of age and child bearing is seen as ok. I think for most girls by 15 the pelvis is finished developing. It’s 16 on average though isn’t it?

In some cultures, 15 is viable.

What do you mean by viable?! I hope you mean "considered old enough to make their own decision and consent" rather than "fair game".

Like you said, it's still rape.

Women wouldn't be fertile if there wasn't a reason for it. I really don't want your comment to mean what it does. The implications are awful. So GIRLS are fertile at 10, some younger....

In some cultures, 15 is viable. Women wouldn't be fertile if there wasn't a reason for it.

Did you not read all of my comments... I’m aware it’s rape. I’m not stupid. But death or having sex with someone who understands that’s what’s needed and willing regardless of age (as that doesn’t seem to matter in gilead) is a no brainier when he has a woman to be around for and a baby that is his. When that woman asks you to do what you have to do because she is terrified and has no power of her own and doesn’t want to be alone, the you do what’s necessary to stay alive, right? He is a rescuer of sorts, he’s also stuck in this crappy regime and cannot just walk away. Not everything is black and white but if you view it that way you aren’t getting the full experience of emotions from the show.

@QuackPorridgeBacon "she seemed more than willing" Still rape. She can't consent.

He clearly didn’t want to though. But he still did.

If Nick didn't sleep with his wife, he'd be strung up as a homosexual. His wife would have seen to it, because she wants to be pregnant. Still doesn't make him a "lovely rescuer" does it? I know it's only a TV show, but it's still rape.

I even felt myself growing to feel sorry for Serena, Yeah, I felt a pang too, with her back story. Then remembered she held down women for her husband to rape.

In the uk we are at episode 3 Apologies, I didn't mean to start off spoilers. We are way ahead here is Oz.

AuntLydia, I think it bothered me because it seemed a bit blame-y towards the collaborators when I really saw them simply as victims too - obviously not a particularly nuanced view. That said, I read it straight out of uni when I'd spent my life up to that point obsessing about science, to the neglect of any serious understanding of modern history. In my defence, I'm trying to learn!

I think with the series they are certainly getting the point across that the violence and cruelty of the collaborators is no less horrific for the handmaidens simply because the collaborators themselves are victims too. That's what I took from the murder of the former Wife (sorry can't remember the names). It would, however, be good to see some of the collaborator men get some comeuppance too.