Where do we draw the trans line....?

fmsfms - don't get so hung up on the pissing, or the passing. Neither are really the point!

It makes my flesh creep every time someone says "Reality is you've probably shared a space with these types already and didn't realise it" Now that is silly. It really is likely that we all have shared a changing room or public loo with a transwoman. And have been doing so for decades. There hasn't been much of an issue previously as everyone played the same polite game. It worked.

It still would and women and transwomen would have continued to co exist in that polite 'let's not make a fuss' manner had it not been for the actons of TRAs. They don't want polite acceptance, they want to dominate female spaces, make decisions without female input, they will brook no discussion as their identity, their existance is not up for debate (whatever that might mean).

Trans men and women really are not the problem. TRAs, handmaidens and other allies, they are the problem... for trans men and women as well as women.

Nope, "passing" is not a gender critical feminist criteria. It's a trans objective.

I'm not denying that M2F and F2M are biologically male/female, I just find it odd that you would rather have a male-passing-presenting "identically male to the eye" F2M person in the toilets with you because he was born female, than an equivalent female passing-presenting identically female to the eye M2F person.

There's an element of cognitive dissonance here; "the F2M can piss with us even though he doesn't want to because he was born female, but the M2F can't"

It makes my flesh creep every time someone says "Reality is you've probably shared a space with these types already and didn't realise it"

It's like an invasion of aliens trying to take over and picking the places I am most vulnerable and want to be private.

I wish they'd show some respect and piss off back to the men's where they belong.

It's not bizzare fmsfms. It's biology.

Bizarre that a male/masculine looking F2M who doesn't identify or want to be female is more welcome in a woman's toilet than a feminine looking M2F who presumably has had equivalent surgery/hormones

Reality is you've probably shared a space with these types already and didn't realise it

yeah 2rebecca, I think sport is what I feel strongest about. women having to compete against men is so damn unfair. If you are male you shouldn't compete in women's sports, full stop.

it was actually all women short lists that pulled me down this rabbit hole. again, representation of transwomen should not come at the expense of representation of women. no male should be on an all women shortlist (and yes I know legally you can be on one with a GRC, doesn't mean I agree).

I'm pretty chilled out about toilets tbh, but I know lots of other women have good reasons not to be, so am happy to be guided by them on that point.

Sorry all! However the agyp elephant in the room is rarely discussed.

The acceptance of women's awards, roles, being counted in diversity as women, advising on women's issues, changing language about female biology, mothering, sexuality etc. This is all psychological colonisation. It's bad. The government is colluding in this.

*to fmsfms

This is where it gets complicated though isnt it, because TIFs can pass extremely well as men due to the powerful effect of testosterone, so how would you know they were a TIF and not just any old dude saying he is one?

There is such a thing as "perceived maleness" being a factor in "the line" for some.

I think passability is really the elephant in the room that we're never allowed to talk about. If you don't pass (either way) you don't enter IMO.

LangCleg listed these situations

should be: in women's sports, providing intimate services and/or healthcare to women requesting women practitioners, taking spaces on affirmative action programmes for women; be counted as women in gender parity statistics or crime statistics; be eligible for women's awards.

Would it be happy for a TIF in these circumstances? I'd have to really think about that because even just perceived maleness in say intimate care or rape crisis can be triggering or just uncomfortable for some women. But if they're clearly female but an "I prefer he pronouns" person like JM, then they're just women to me.

In theory I accept TIFs as female so I am far more comfortable with a TIF than a biological male in general women's spaces.

@PermissionToSpeakSir, well put.

oh my god that link.

every day's a school day, but I did not enjoy today's lesson.

also, don't stick tampons up your bum ffs.

Wow, I presumed that the tampon thing was trans women with surgical vaginas, it never occurred to me that some folk would think sticking one up your bum was a feminine experience. I still doubt it's done by many. Someone mentioned sport and I feel more strongly about that than any other issue.
If you have a Y chromosome for whatever reason you compete with the men. Tough on the very very small minority of genuine intersex folk but the Y chromosome does change physiology which is why people with it competing against women win. There are lots of things you still can do with a Y chromosome but competing as an equal againstwomen without a Y chromosome shouldn't be one of them.

Hackedoffwoman I managed the first few sentences of that and gave up.

My 'line' is that sex change is impossible and that it is rude, boundary-violating, disrepectful, selfish, deranged and a big fucking red flag about other disorders of personailty you have to cross the line and go into the spaces where your sex doesn't belong.

People who want to do this need help with their mental health and perhaps to fight as activists to get their own mixed spaces and to stop dicking the rest of the world around to suit themselves.

all intents and purposes male

They are not male for all purposes! Their intents maybe.

*So if a to all intents and purposes male/masculine looking f2m (facial hair etc, mens clothes) came in the ladies, that's ok for you?

Yep

Hackedoffwoman

No worries. Useful link maybe dime could read it, it helps highlight women's concerns

I however would love to hear peakpants view!

"however they are still female and are welcome in female spaces."

So if a to all intents and purposes male/masculine looking f2m (facial hair etc, mens clothes) came in the ladies, that's ok for you?

Sarah Sorry for mis reading your post and for the requirement of bleaching your brain if you looked at that blog!

This sums up my stance

archive.li/zTrKE

I got a far way down. PeakPants should read it. It might help with her stance. And don't mean her viewpoint.