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Original poster

Trans Kids Are Less Conservative About Gender Roles Than Cis Kids

182 replies

WAKAME · 02/06/2018 12:16

It is often suggested in gender critical circles that trans people have very rigid and conservative views of gender roles and stereotypes, but a recent study has found that trans kids (and their siblings) are actually less rigid about gender stereotypes than their cis peers.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28913950

This is no surprise to trans people of course - we spend our lives fighting against imposed gender roles - the pre-transition life of a trans woman for example, is typically spent being told by homophobes not to be so girly, whilst her post-transition life is typically spent being told by TERFs how manly she is.

So it is a sad irony that whilst trans kids are "more willing to indicate a desire to befriend and attend school with someone who violates gender stereotypes", it is be amongst gender non-conforming women that they will find many of the people who repeatedly accuse them of perpetuating gender stereotypes.

Still, from a feminist perspective, it's nice to know that trans kids are leading the way by helping to support their gender non-conforming peers, whilst also helping to educate the people around them about the acceptance of human diversity. And as more and more trans people come out in childhood and access the help they need, I am sure things are only going to get better :-)

OP posts:
Original poster
WAKAME · 02/06/2018 17:18

"Taking all of those 'nuances' into account, do you believe that human beings can change their sex?"

The problem is that your question doesn't really make sense because no one is 100% male or female. You can however change the degree of physical masculinity of femininity you have.

OP posts:
myanxietyisthroughtheroof · 02/06/2018 17:17

I don't feel female. I am. It's just not a feeling I have. I am one.

I have this physical proof fortunately irrespective of my feelings from my genitalia and birth certificate confirming I am so.

How do you feel female??? I have not got the memo on how this feeling should feel

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/06/2018 17:17

Ah fuck it... I shall give myself permission!

All human characteristics exist on spectrum between masculine and feminine extremes. Polemics... masculine - like a male- and female - like a female - poles.

Most people have most of their characteristics more towards one end than the other but we are all a mixture and no one is 100% male or female. Correction - Masculine or feminine. We are all, with a very few exceptions, all either male or female.

At the same time, many human sexual characteristics are highly malleable, so trans people tend to move lots of those characteristics from one end of the spectrum towards the other.

Correction: human sexual characteristics are often presented in an amalgous manner, so many people, at many times of their lives, move more or less freely along that spectrum. As the characteristics of masculine or feminine are socially constructed, stereotypes, that need not mean anything other than an individual is non conformist. For a small minority this might indicate body dysmorphia or autogynephilia .

Magpiesarehuge · 02/06/2018 17:17

What’s GNC about Lees, Mock, Bergdorf, Willoughby etc? They conform more to gender stereotypes than nearly all the women i know. If they dressed and acted as they do and said they were men - then that would be different.

Atthebottomofthesea · 02/06/2018 17:15

If you call me names because I also happen to be trans, I might have something to say about it.

Well it might be good to start with practicing what you preach and stop using cis. You have repeatedly been told it is offensive and yet you still use it.

Anyway I can't really comment on an abstract.

Original poster
WAKAME · 02/06/2018 17:14

"But to then say you’re trans is identifying with a specific gender role."

You misunderstand - being trans is primarily about your body. I was a tomboy growing up, but I also had a female identity - gender identity and gender role are different things. That's why some trans women are feminine heterosexuals and some are butch lesbians.

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KERALA1 · 02/06/2018 17:13

Have you spent time with kids? Gender doesn't matter they just play. Dd insisted we called her "Derek" for some months. Where are these kids picking up all these "identifying" "trans" ideas?

Original poster
WAKAME · 02/06/2018 17:12

"My little girl often tells stuff like "boys say they are better at science than girls" "

Yes, I used to hear that at school, and because I had a female identity, I assumed I would be bad at maths.

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myanxietyisthroughtheroof · 02/06/2018 17:11

It's not complex and nuanced at all.

You cannot alter how you were born.

You can alter it as you develop but you cannot swap! You are not a clownfish

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/06/2018 17:10

So.. now you have mansplained explained all of that social construct stuff, answer the question. Taking all of those 'nuances' into account, do you believe that human beings can change their sex?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/06/2018 17:09

What can I tell you - I'm a woman and a feminist in a feminist space full of women. If you call me names because I also happen to be trans, I might have something to say about it. You can tell me all sorts of things, maybe start with why you are cherry picking bits of posts and giving flippant answers.

Patronising us, as you last few posts have done, won't make us go away! It won't make us agree with you. And it won't make us all shout happily "Yay! WAKAME is a woman!"

Original poster
WAKAME · 02/06/2018 17:07

"Do you believe humans can change sex, Op?"

It's complex and nuanced. All human characteristics exist on spectrum between masculine and feminine extremes. Most people have most of their characteristics more towards one end than the other but we are all a mixture and no one is 100% male or female.

At the same time, many human sexual characteristics are highly malleable, so trans people tend to move lots of those characteristics from one end of the spectrum towards the other.

OP posts:
LangCleg · 02/06/2018 17:07

Have trans women who are in this group because they are women

Human beings cannot change sex. Gender identity is a religious belief based in dualism.

This is not a religious website. Therefore, there are no transwomen in this group because they are women. There are trans-identified people here who are respectful of a space for women and also those who are not.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/06/2018 17:06

myanxiety speaking with all the authority of a person with a single transman friend... I have known him since about 1986. I have been there since he was "Juliet", went to the Czech clinic with him for his last major surgery - making his penis - and have been his mate and even worked with him after he became "Julian" He has been in a hetero relationship with my female ex boss for over a decade. So I would say he is about as transman as you can get.

Just like DHs full on gender bending, cross dressing mate, no, he isn't involved, finds it frightening and can't see what there is to be gained from all of the shouting and threatening. He has no desire whatsoever to be anywhere, do anything that makes others uncomfortable. And yes, he is fully aware that this is his female conditioning, still hanging around making itself known Smile

DHs cross dressing mate, on the other hand, is happy to explain his fetish, including the fact that he gets a sexual kick out of making people feel uncomfortable. Not sure how his wife has put up with him, but they have been together since their teens and his 3 sons seem to have found a way of dealing with Tranny Dad!

Bowlofbabelfish · 02/06/2018 17:05

But can humans change sex?

Original poster
WAKAME · 02/06/2018 17:05

"You see WAKAME we don't waltz all over trans spaces and shout MAN TIM TIF TRANNY."

What can I tell you - I'm a woman and a feminist in a feminist space full of women. If you call me names because I also happen to be trans, I might have something to say about it.

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Original poster
WAKAME · 02/06/2018 17:02

^"This was one of the best things I've seen on Twitter for a while:
twitter.com/tionalyn/status/1001279442184892416"^

Bless her - just like me, except I liked having short hair and wearing trousers too.

OP posts:
Original poster
WAKAME · 02/06/2018 17:00

"In the OP WAKAME regers to the homphobic bullying that transchildren hmm often recieve."

Yes - trans kids are typically perceived as gay before they transition, so trans girls who happen to be feminine often experience persistent homophobic bullying. When they transition, it becomes transphobic bullying instead.

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Original poster
WAKAME · 02/06/2018 16:58

"It would be far better for transactivists to go onto threads about rape and prostitution, about women's rights to abortion and pre-and post maternity care, etc. And talk about the problems women face, empathising and sympathising with anecdotes, and expressing support for campaigns. Giving of time and, if possible, money. "

I think you might have meant to write "TERFs" instead of "transactivists" there ;-)

OP posts:
Bowlofbabelfish · 02/06/2018 16:58

Do you believe humans can change sex, Op?

Original poster
WAKAME · 02/06/2018 16:56

"My impression of mtf transgender people who are in the public eye is that they often go out of their way to confirm to an extremely sexualised patriarchal stereotype of women. Hair extensions, long nails, figure hugging clothes, tons of make up etc."

You mean like millions of cis women?

"How they must look down on me, a mere cis woman with my minimal grooming and lack of interest in flicking my hair extensions and my clothes bought from charity shops because I don't want to buy new clothes that have been made in sweat shops by children and women. Are they broadminded enough to accept me, a plain, scruffy middled-aged 'cis' woman as a woman? "

Of course. I'm a trans woman and you have just described my appearance rather accurately!

OP posts:
myanxietyisthroughtheroof · 02/06/2018 16:55

Out of curiosity... are transmen quite so involved in this whole TRA movement?

Bowlofbabelfish · 02/06/2018 16:53

There’s no such thing as a cis women. There are just women.

A child who insists they are the opposite sexually needs sympathetic counselling because you cannot change sex. affirmative treatment is a mindfuck - humans can’t change sex.

Do you believe humans can change sex, Op?

Original poster
WAKAME · 02/06/2018 16:53

"as a woman who grew up as a tomboy, all toy guns (sorry), cars and few dresses. Guess what, I am a heterosexual woman, married for decades to an actual man and STILL I do not conform to many gender stereotypes."

Ah - you and I were very similar as children, and I don't conform to gender stereotypes either much. And I too have been married for years, but it's a same sex marriage, so there we differ.

"Yet I am not trans, nor did I ever feel I was not female!"

Congratulations!

"No dear, you spend your lives trying to inhabit those gender roles. You must do, or you would have no need to trans from anything to anything else, you could just be who you are!"

Thing is, my body just felt like the wrong sort, even by the age of 4, and being a girl who was referred to as a boy all the time just wore me down. It's OK though - I transitioned and it's all fine now. Sounds like we both ended up happy :-)

OP posts:
gendercritter · 02/06/2018 16:51

I don't know about anyone else but I don't believe it's a productive use of energy replying further on this thread.

Certain posters are quite skilled at making people waste their time on here. Time which could be better spent elsewhere.

Also my feeling is that every time someone reproduces this op's name IN CAPITALS it's like the are being allowed to squat squarely in the centre of the room while we all have to step round them. I don't wish to indulge them. It's not good etiquette to use capitals online unless you want to seem like you're shouting

Just my 2 cents.

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