Trans Kids Are Less Conservative About Gender Roles Than Cis Kids

Well hold on. Surely being a tomboy is a type of gender role isn't it? Little girls who like trucks aren't allowed to just be normal little girls, no, they are little girls with male interests apparently. Even the term gender nonconformist affirms gender roles.

Out of curiosity though, how do you define gender without gender norms and gender roles? You have used a lot of gender normative language here yet claim to be gender nonconformist. I'm not sure that you understand what nonconformist means. It isn't about being different to our rebbelling against the majority view, it is about not seeing the majority view in the first place.

You misunderstand - being trans is primarily about your body. I was a tomboy growing up, but I also had a female identity - gender identity and gender role are different things. That's why some trans women are feminine heterosexuals and some are butch lesbians.

So you were born a male, but in your mind "should" have been a girl, and now you are a transwoman....

I think you should precisely define a "feminine heterosexual transwoman", and a "butch lesbian transwoman", physically, and add it to the DM comments on the ManFriday article.

I'm sure it will be a revelation to most people.

many human sexual characteristics are highly malleable

If you are referring the the surgery performed on them to form facsimiles of the opposite sex then I suppose you could say that meant they were malleable. That's all though.

The forced transitioning of gender non conforming children by transgender advocates is abusive to children. It has no place here nor in the schools.

When I was 4, I thought I was an alien. I didn't understand or identify with other children and how they behaved. It didn't make any sense to me. I was a withdrawn, unhappy child. I used to wish for the 'people like me' to come down on their spaceship and take me to my real planet where I'd fit in.

I'm not an alien. I'm autistic, although it took decades of struggle with depression and feelings of isolation before I figured that out.

Why is this relevant to the thread? I also resisted gender socialisation. If as a 4-year-old I'd said I was really a 'boy' instead of 'alien' I dread to think where it might have led. But of course I don't know what it's like to be a boy any more than I know what it's like to be an alien. Being uncomfortable or unhappy with the sex you are and trying to reject it is obviously a difficult experience for a child. It doesn't make them the opposite sex. It doesn't even make them 'feel like' the opposite sex, because how can they possibly know how that feels? They know how they feel, subjectively. That's it.

Can humans change sex? Yes or no?

And if no, is there a third gamete?

A couple of examples would be great.

All human characteristics exist on spectrum between masculine and feminine extremes. Most people have most of their characteristics more towards one end than the other but we are all a mixture and no one is 100% male or female.

Indulge me Wakame by clarifying what you mean by "human characteristics"?

Sits in queue, waiting...

The problem is that your question doesn't really make sense because no one is 100% male or female

Again incorrect. Sex is Male or female. Even those with true intersex conditions are, at a genetic level, Male or female.

Can humans change sex? Yes or no?

It's complex and nuanced. All human characteristics exist on spectrum between masculine and feminine extremes. Most people have most of their characteristics more towards one end than the other but we are all a mixture and no one is 100% male or female.

That is entirely incorrect. SEX is either Male or female. It is not complex. It is not a spectrum. We know in molecular detail how the genetic pathways that lead to Male and female pan out.
I’m talking about biological sex - not some wishy washy, subjective soul or feelings based thing. Sex. The objective, measurable, observable quantity of sex

And I ask you again: can humans change SEX.?

Im trying to make it through the thread, but keep being distracted by wakames contradictions.

WAKAME, you are male.
You may also be trans, you may be also be a male without a penis, you may prefer to use other terms which you feel are more respectful. But you are not, and can never be, a woman.

You insisit you have a right to be called a woman, be in womens spaces, to define what women are called.

Women have repeatedly, politely asked you to stop using cis to describe them, yet you persist.

You are not a woman equally debating feminism here.

You are a male telling women what to do.
As far as gender conformation goes, you seem to be excelling.

My eldest dd loves coding and football - should I not bother to discuss periods with her as she’s quite obviously a boy?

Gender is a set of antiquated personality traits grouped together for the purpose of keeping women submissive. I will not enforce that upon my daughters, and yet the rejection of gender is not a welcome sign for men to take our biologically necessary spaces. We are not equal.

I think you might have meant to write "TERFs" instead of "transactivists" there ;-)

I see you now.

What’s GNC about Lees, Mock, Bergdorf, Willoughby etc? They conform more to gender stereotypes than nearly all the women i know.

Jenni Murray's article from last year (which resulted in her being publically rebuked by the BBC)
extract:
"In a discussion about the Dorchester hotel’s demands that its female staff should always wear make-up, have a manicure and wear stockings over shaved legs, she (IW) was perfectly happy to go along with such requirements. There wasn’t a hint of understanding that she was simply playing into the stereotype — a man’s idea of what a woman should be.

She described hairy legs on a woman as “dirty”. But hairy legs are not considered dirty in a man. Did she not know that the question of whether a woman should shave her legs or her a rmpits had been a topic of debate among women for an awfully long time? And that to describe a woman who chose not to shave as dirty was insulting and again suggested an ignorance of sexual politics?"

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/the-sunday-times-magazine/be-trans-be-proud-but-dont-call-yourself-a-real-woman-frtld7q5c

I remember this interview on Woman's Hour vividly: where I was and the swear words I shouted incredulously having heard someone say 'yes but hairy women's legs= dirty'. I then convinced myself that I had misheard & had no idea who IW was. I thought a man, perhaps like Gok Wan involved with women's styling.

Having listened again on catch-up, I was mightily relieved to then read Jenni Murray decribe feeling furious about this comment in her Sunday Time magazine article. I was interested to read her wider thoughts... and utterly bemused by the very public rebuke she received.

The problem is that your question doesn't really make sense because no one is 100% male or female

Erm yes they are. Apart from intersexed people - everyone else is 100% male or female. That is the very point.

There is some debate about gender identity in the very young, given most children don't have any true gender identity yet alone a trans one.
In hindsight for example, when as a child I wanted to be called David, it was more a reflection of society than a reflection of anything innate. With supportive parents I was able to move forward.

I mean that women want how they are treated, i.e. how people talk to them, the respect that they are given, the expectations that are set on how they should behave , the expectations that are set around what they can and can't do,, how they are expected to look, should be indistinguishable from how men are treated. Based on capability which is not judged in a split second.

In terms of when we are vulnerable: there are situations where men have a tendency to treat women particularly badly...as objects rather than human beings . This can be when women are naked as an example. And once they start that , then they are more likely to engage in sexual violence. And since women are physically weaker, there is little women can do to resist this. We also see this in the intimidation and physical violence that some women have been subjected to when they want to discuss self id . The behaviours of some people are relying on the women being weaker and so more easily scared. By allowing sex differentiation we are reducing the chances that men have to view women as objects and encouraging women to fully participate in society without fear

Umm...

WAWAG? Why is this in FWR?

The more of this thread I read, the more I get a very strong sense of AGP.

It's complex and nuanced. All human characteristics exist on spectrum between masculine and feminine extremes. Most people have most of their characteristics more towards one end than the other but we are all a mixture and no one is 100% male or female.

At the same time, many human sexual characteristics are highly malleable, so trans people tend to move lots of those characteristics from one end of the spectrum towards the other.

Absolute self-serving bunkum and doesn't answer the question. Let's try another one:

How many types of human gamete are there?

how can you possibly feel like a girl when your biologically male. You will never be able to achieve that.

My kids are just kids. Not CIS anything

Nope I'm definitely 100% female.

Even if I don't have this special feeling of being so.

The problem is that your question doesn't really make sense because no one is 100% male or female. You can however change the degree of physical masculinity of femininity you have Correction. The problem is that this is biology denying bollocks, as explained in my last post!

WAKAME Why not read ToeToToe 's comment, follow the link to an awesome twitter link? Engage with what T2T was saying...

ToeToToe I can't wait to show the thread to my neice. Last time I saw her we had a very interesting conversation about Space!

That's why some trans women are feminine heterosexuals and some are butch lesbians.”

Are you taking the piss? Sure a butch Lesbian TW is basically a heterosexual man.