No True Transwoman - transadvocates question whether TW is 'genuine' after said TW sexually harasses women in homeless shelter

Rather than all this training and pontificating let’s just keep penises out of female only spaces.

SupermatchGame Pratchet

SMG: ?

My fear is that this could make it much harder to control the transfer of born-male, transgender prisoners to women’s prisons.

I'm not trying to pretend there isn't potentially a problem. This is why there needs to be rigorous risk assessments and appropriate application of the EA regardless of how someone identifies.

I have reasonable confidence that the women who manage and run these spaces would be able to risk assess and screen out inappropriate presentations (what you described as men pretending).

SMG I have used the language from the article in the OP.

'Karen Adell Scot, a local transgender advocate, even offered to train Naomi's House employees on how to recognize people just pretending to identify as the opposite gender"

I know Oldman. You do good work. I followed you until Twitter made it impossible for me.

Thanks. May I ask how Twitter stopped you following me? I don't mind at all if you stopped because I talk rubbish sometimes , but you've piqued my curiosity saying Twitter stopped you following me.

SMG that's because you use a different meaning to the word 'men'.

What do you call an adult human of the sex that produces motile gametes to fertilise ova?

How do you mean

As I think you do. Someone may or may not be trans. They may or may not abuse someone sexually. The second one doesn't change anything about the first one. People who say it does are trying to pull a No True Scotsman. I suspect we're agreeing with each other.

'As more trans women who were convicted as men hope to follow rapist Martin Ponting into female wings, prison governors fear vulnerable inmates could be attacked'

(extract)
"But one governor, speaking on condition of anonymity, said: ‘My fear is that this could make it much harder to control the transfer of born-male, transgender prisoners to women’s prisons.

‘This could lead to vulnerable women being intimidated – and even attacked.’

The warning came as the Ministry of Justice confirmed that dozens of ‘trans-identified male’ prisoners are living as women in jails exclusively housing convicted sex offendenders"

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798945/Trans-women-convicted-men-attack-vulnerable-inmates.html

In the US, they have a lot of 'by state' in their laws, so things vary state by state (sometimes by a lot). I just mentioned the US part, because I thought you may have overlooked it (sometimes I do that, LOL). But most people assume that what happens in other similar countries won't happen at their home country, because reasons or something, and therefore don't take it on board as to what is happening elsewhere.

The shelter of the OP, had a flowery cross symbol, so I assume it is some 'hip' independent church-run thing. I don't have any idea about the grant/charity system in the US. I guess the staff are more moderny-christians, and a bit more open to the T thing? Just my assumption though, and cannot be bothered to look up the state legislation around the OP.

I'm definitely not defending men's rights to access women's spaces. I think I've been quite clear about that.

Maybe the issue which hasn't been acknowledged is that being born male may not be able to be included in some risk assessments.

Thanks for the additional detail R0wantrees

I'm not sure if the exact same situation would occur in the uk as the exemptions in the equality act would mean that a pre op trans woman would not have to be accommodated in that exact way in relation to showers etc. As you probably know Women's Aid have initiated their own review into trans staff in refuges and have supported trans service users on an individual risk assessed basis in the past. I have reasonable confidence that the women who manage and run these spaces would be able to risk assess and screen out inappropriate presentations (what you described as men pretending).

With regards to specialist new services I would assume, although I don't know, that there wouldn't be sufficient homeless trans people to warrant third spaces in that way as they are such small numbers. Despite LGBT being over represented in the homeless data. So one way or another they are going to have to be accommodated somewhere.

Most of the documentation I've seen around ensuring homeless shelters are trans friendly, recommend that 'bodily privacy' should be afforded to all service users and single use showers should be made available where appropriate.

LaSqrrl yes I understood that. I don't think its just about them feeling sorry though. As the article said, the shelter was required by federal law. Homeless services are run on a shoestring. They always have some limitations if they have accomodation (rather than say street support).

A federal law which means they can't work as they would otherwise has really serious implications.

SarahCarer, yes me too! LOLSOB.

R0wan the murder of D was in the US. As are the many cases of assaults etc in women's shelters - because parts of the US are behaving like self-ID is sufficient (it's not), plus the bigger population of the US is a case study of 'how things will be' as a logical conclusion to self-ID. I guess that women's homelessness shelters are the first to experience the problems, given they will feel sorry for all sorts in a non-judgemental way and take them in.

I've always assumed Supermatch is a man who would probably identify as 'cis' . Gosh it has only just occurred to me he/she might be a woman.

The former integration tsar, Dame Louise Casey, has attacked the government for doing “absolutely nothing” about community cohesion a year after she published a study on ministers’ failure to tackle the problem.
www.theguardian.com/society/2017/dec/05/louise-casey-ministers-have-done-absolutely-nothing-about-cohesion
re Louise Casey:
Her criticism comes just two days after the government’s social mobility commissioner, Alan Milburn, resigned in protest at Theresa May’s failure in her own pledge to build a fairer Britain.

Speaking before a scheduled appearance before a House of Lords committee, Casey echoed Milburn’s charge that the government was too focused on Brexit negotiations to tackle domestic problems.

I think I've said this before about those that vehemently defend men's rights to access women's spaces on here. It is a common theme.

I'm definitely not defending men's rights to access women's spaces. I think I've been quite clear about that.

Yes that's her. She's done quite a lot since being involved specifically with homelessness and some things I've seen her do and say have surprised me. She does though have roots in homeless services.

She did the Rotherham report?

LaSqrrl
I would strongly recommend that you contact Louise Casey with these details.
I saw her at work in the early stages of her career when she was involved with homeless services. She spoke a lot of sense then and will hold her own position.

It's no longer generally accepted that vulnerable people should be protected. People used to disagree about how to protect them, not whether to protect them. Now it's perfectly normal to argue that vulnerable people don't need protecting.

Why are you censoring the details?
Because it was from a private FB group, and actually, I don't want to be posting anything that may identify the support worker (see my comment just above). It is about protecting her.

She is right that there was little coverage of D's murder, I did manage to find more coverage of C's trial.

Even more chilling, R0wan, and I am trying not to break the confidentiality of the group I am in, but the support worker who posted that account says that her days are numbered where she works, because there is some transwoman 'gunning for her'. Not sure if in direct relation to 2015, or independently of that. It probably does not matter. This is what they are doing to women-only services and service workers.