ManFriday article in the Daily Mail

It's such a shame that Rameses "argued that these protests signify that it’s ok to hate the trans, non-binary and non-gender community". I heard him say that he would like to sit down and talk about it. I hope that this may have been possible after the interview finished.

Is Ramses identifying as a transman or non binary?

Yes. I think his “let’s talk” was on the terms that I listen and change my views entirely.

I know We Need To Talk and find a middle way but that’s just not on offer is it? Any offers to talk aren’t about finding compromise, they’re about beating us into submission. And when we say no we’re threatened (have had threats of police action and civil action today) and shut down (am shadowbanned).

They’re just making me more stubborn.

Ah.. cross post!

Great interview Sweary and thank you for sharing a link. I was sorry to have missed it.
It's such a shame that Rameses "argued that these protests signify that it’s ok to hate the trans, non-binary and non-gender community". I heard him say that he would like to sit down and talk about it. I hope that this may have been possible after the interview finished.

Yes we had something of a conversation. It wasn’t particularly constructive.

The radio interview I did about this is available on this link thanks to my opponent hosting it on their website.

@anonymouseagain

There are still ladies only sessions at the Turkish Baths in Harrogate:

www.turkishbathsharrogate.co.uk/Pages/Terms.aspx

(although they do seem to be closing for a two month refurb)

@anonymouseagain you mentioned a comment made about a guide training about gender identity- can you remember any more? With my 'guiding" hat on I would be very interested in this given all that is going on in guiding atm.

Flowers thank you for posting the poster from Twitter.

It needs to be shared far and wide.

Well done chaps!

Sarah knows this. Watch all this "you can exclude if it's a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim" go out of the window in an instant if the GRA changes to allow many men to self identify into being legally female.

Exactly.

I'd like to add that I don't swim either because I don't feel safe going alone. I've been sexually harassed and perved at by boys and adult men as a teen and so I don't go. Which is a shame, because it's a perfect exercise for any overweight or with back trouble.

@R0wantrees, we should start counting this if no one else will.

one of the speakers/trainers had told her that once the GRA has been changed, they will go after the same-sex exemptions in the EA next.

Of course they will. Because changing the GRA undermines the case for female spaces.

Sarah knows this. Watch all this "you can exclude if it's a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim" go out of the window in an instant if the GRA changes to allow many men to self identify into being legally female.

@R0wantrees who measures the women and girls who may have quietly stopped participating? Inclusion policies need to balance the needs of all to participate in sports

I was at WPUK Newcastle and at the pub afterwards it turned out that LOADS of us were Turkish Bath veterans and really missed that sex-segregated relaxation and socialisation space. We didn't have to keep our tops on the way women de facto (if not de jure) have to in mixed spaces and it made the heat more effective because it could directly reach more of my skin. Since then, I've never been alone to a sauna or a steam room or a turkish suite since, because I can't find a sex-segregated one and I don't feel safe going alone to a mixed one. I live on my own and so going with someone else is actually quite hard.

@SarahAr: the current law allows the use of partial exemption to define spaces for biological females and GRC-holding biological males as well as full exemption to define spaces for biological females only. Under self-id, we will no longer be able to trust the partial exemption to keep us safe from fakers whilst still allowing males with a GD diagnosis into the space. Because the TRAs like pressuring businesses into treating TIMs as females, few will be willing to take the risk of a lawsuit and will either capitulate and use self-id or just go mixed. All spaces with males in are de facto male spaces where females are not safe and have to be constantly vigilant: just what you don't want in a turkish bath, sauna, or steam room. Also, at WPUK, one of the Guide leaders said at the end of the meeting that she'd been at some kind of briefing session earlier in the week about gender identity and one of the speakers/trainers had told her that once the GRA has been changed, they will go after the same-sex exemptions in the EA next.

That's brilliant

What Lang said.

I assumed as much. But some people are more open to the voices of transwomen than those of women...

YY. But I do appreciate Debbie making the point.

Given everything we know about the Guardian and the Daily Mail, perhaps the Guardian has got it right?

So the Guardian was right to vociferously support the invasion of Iraq? What about supporting the "some cuts are ok" austerity-lite proposed by Ed Miliband? What about sex pozzie promotion of prostitution of sex work? What about PIE all those years ago? It supported PIE in the name of gay liberation and refused to countenance PIE was an infiltration group nothing to do with the cause of gay rights.

The Grauniad is not a left wing newspaper. It is a middle class liberal outfit that has always supported neoliberalism and still does with regard to transactivism, which is a neoliberal ideology. Nothing left wing about transactivism whatsoever.

The Mail might well be a right wing shit rag but it prints the occasional good and balanced article - such as this one. But the Mail being a right wing shit rag doesn't make the Grauniad a bastion of left wing thought, feminism or socialism. Because it isn't.

ManFriday isn't about the GRA so it's annoying that it's always brought up.

It's about keeping female (/male) spaces female (/male) only. Because this is not happening right now.

When your allies are the DM, the Catholic Church and David Davies MP - you have to seriously consider if your views are correct.

Allies of women's rights in this debate also include The Morning Star, The New Statesman, far left women (and men) and liberals and centrists.

On the other hand, when those on your side of the argument include people saying it's ok to be violent against others based on their political views, actually being violent against women, and suggesting that lesbians are bigots if they don't sleep with people with penises maybe you should reconsider your position?

And if the DM, The Catholic Church and DD MP have a stronger stance on women's rights - including the right to even discuss them - than you, maybe you need to be asking yourself why that is, not pointing the finger at them?

This is a great example of the misleading and vociferous campaign against transgender people in the (far) right wing press. And also of the misleading aims of Man Friday.

The proposed changes to the GRA will not give self-identifying men (or even self-identifying transwomen) the legal right to enter sex segregated spaces.

There is a debate to be had over whether giving self-identifying men the legal right to enter sex segregated spaces is a good thing. There is no debate to be had over whether the government's proposed reforms would enable this - they won't.

Women in refuges getting abused by men, and having to take lawsuits out against the refuge not enough for you?
Women in prisons getting abused by men and having to take lawsuits out against the state not enough for you?
Women and girls being filmed and abused in 'gender neutral' changing rooms not enough for you?

What will it take before you concede that women and girls are in danger from men and self ID will only make it worse?

Just how many women and girls have to suffer or be at risk before you admit that there is a risk here?

Or do you just not give a shiny shit about women and girls in any way?

Sending out the batsignal - @DebbieinBirmingham (is that right?)