How do we scourge out racism and classism in feminism?

But you know, we clean our own house first, no?

It would be good if all those on teh intwerwebs and in university classrooms did this instead of standing up,frothing and ejaculating with rage anytime anyone mentioned women's oppression ...

I read that the greater proportion of Daily Mail readers are women? I think that even Daily Mail reading women have the right to know what is going on and to speak about it.

Gender critical feminism seems to have been very influenced by radical feminism, but I don't think all transgender critical perspectives are feminist. Some people are transgender critical but not gender critical iyswim.

The black men and anti-racist activists have equal responsibility with feminist activists to pro toe black women.

Of course they do, as per their mandate to address the oppression of all people of colour. At least I assume that's their mandate.

Funny that they are rarely called on this responsibility and indeed there is entrenched sexism and misogyny in anti racist activist groups.

Are they rarely called out on it? It's no surprise that it's there but are they rarely called out on it? I'm afraid I have no insight.

Who talks about that?

I would hope they do, just as we talk about classism and racism within Feminism. But you know, we clean our own house first, no?

Or things like ‘TERF blocker’ lists etc

flashnazia -
To be honest, I don't expect feminists to start fighting racism/xenophobia full-scale as we've got enough on our plate but I don't expect feminists to downplay it or support it either.

Individual feminists are people like everyone else. Feminism as a movement can and should be held to higher standards than individuals within the collective IMO. I think it’s an important distinction to make.

It is particularly important with the rise of social media where a person can say one thing in the wrong way, like or follow the wrong person and be totally written off forever.

BeyondSceptical - I should clarify that I do not mean don’t bring up anything about your experiences ever. I mean specifically to stop centring identity and lived experience as the only thing that counts/qualifies and to stop prefacing arguments with that statement all the time, especially when it is entirely irrelevant information that adds nothing.

Argh I thanked the wrong person! Thank you pencils

Pencils that was brilliant and clearly and powerfully summarises experiences I have had with that group of activists.

It's the old example; feminists compel a company to achieve gender equality on their board. Race equality campaigners compel them to achieve race equality. They achieve both. Structural and unconscious prejudice means all the men are black and all the women are white. Who's helping the black women?

The black men and anti-racist activists have equal responsibility with feminist activists to pro toe black women. Funny that they are rarely called on this responsibility and indeed there is entrenched sexism and misogyny in anti racist activist groups. Who talks about that?

PencilsInSpace

Thank you so much.

Thank you for posting that Pencils.

Thank you offred, I have saved that along with the ten rules of misogyny. Brilliant post.

Also yy to "And please can we just stop making everything begin with ‘as a [insert identifier here] I think’?" ( I don't think I said it here? )

To be honest, I don't expect feminists to start fighting racism/xenophobia full-scale as we've got enough on our plate but I don't expect feminists to downplay it or support it either. As women we should listen to marginalised women and include them as we know how it feels to be sidelined. This is why I find recent discussions on threads I won't mention so depressing.

But we have to resolve these things together. That’s the whole point.

I understand why it is too much sometimes because the disappointment when ‘even feminists’ get it wrong does not happen in a vacuum but in the context of the above.

Well I would say that conversely it is necessary to understand why people are wanting these things to be recognised by feminism in the first place.

The rest of the world, almost universally hates you relative to the number of non-socially acceptable classes which you can be identified as.

This is why women with other class issues are so desperately wanting feminism to fight for them in the first place.

If someone is wrong it’s their argument that is wrong not their identity.

Agreed.

I don't think 'challenging' and 'calling out' are the same thing but I'm not invested in changing your mind about it birds. It sounds like what you are doing - challenging and examining - is what I would call engagement.

Yes I agree it would be naive to think that engagement will always work but I think trying to engage does have to be a starting point if you want people to understand your perspective and if you want to build solidarity.

There have been a few people on MN that I have reached a point of not wanting to engage with, because they aren't willing to give themselves into that process - their posts have been full of insults and attempted shaming and outright lies. There would be no point in trying to engage with someone coming from those places.

Really agree with your post at 11:12 Offred. When people try to tell me that feminism should be expending huge amounts of energy fighting various 'isms I wonder what they're trying to divert me from.

And could I make a plea to keep the cries of 'white middle class woman ' down a bit? It's just another way of dismissing women's points of view.

LangCleg - On a related note, does anyone have, or know where I can find, that stupendous thread from LucyLovesLife on Twitter?

Yes I saved the text of that:

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Statement from Working class community workers from Deptford. We are attending the women’s meeting at the House of Commons today. We would like to offer an explanation as to why this is necessary. See below

After many years of working at grass roots within our community we have recently been made aware of an issue that directly effects the working class and women in our area.

You must understand we are not graduate activists or or women’s rights campaigners. We are community workers and our concerns regarding changes to the GRA come from a lifetime of personal experience and having worked with some of the most marginalise people in our area.

The majority of our recent projects have been working with rough sleepers, the homeless and those that have been excluded from society. The issues they face include: unsupported/ mental health illness, sexual violence and prostitution, childhood trauma and abuse...

domestic violence, poverty, ex care system issues, addiction, prison,rehab,homelessness and austerity.

The people in our community that we represent are the most likely to access/ be placed in sex segregated services.Some have and will access all of these services.

Our local political and community organisations have been infiltrated by a group of well meaning white middle class goldsmith (uni) students. These people although well intentioned have rail roaded many vital projects by introducing identity policies and intersectional thinking. They do this without truly understanding or experiencing working class issues.

Meetings we have attended for the purpose of discussing community housing projects and women’s wellness etc have been used as a platform to re educate working class people on the new academic language expected within our organisations.

As anyone from a working class back ground will tell you, these theories and ideologies rarely translate into working class communities.

The extremely small number of transsexual (I use the old term as this has a very different meaning to the university umbrella term currently thrown about) members of the community are and have always been excepted and protected by community organisations.

We are now informed that transgender people are being routinely abused (mis gendered) and should be protected above all other marginalised groups. All that has changed is privileged students have adopted a set of gender identities that allow them to be considered marginalised.

The people we encountered were far from marginalised. In fact they were highly educated, openly classist and aggressive.

This new politics doesn’t equate in our community or for the people we support. We are dealing with working class issues with severely marginalised people and the trans lobby is a gentrification of working class social and political movements. Note the difference between trans lobby and trans people who we support.

No one will discuss our concerns regarding self id. Our local Labour Party has refused to comment or debate with the working class people.

We are attending the meeting this evening as this is only place that is willing to discuss theses issues.

When we are being verbally abused and called fascists because we are concerned about the effects of policy change on marginalised people it is a direct attack on working class women and grass roots organisations.

when sharing information about this event and attempt to shut it down be aware that you are complicit in the silencing of not only women but working class people who have not afforded the privileged of a safe space or university education. Thank you x

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There's also a good interview with Meghan Murphy here (starts about halfway down the page).

If someone is wrong it’s their argument that is wrong not their identity.

And please can we just stop making everything begin with ‘as a [insert identifier here] I think’?

It undermines the communication of ideas by making issues exclusive right from the very start.

Where feminism addresses other class issues it is because feminism is about women as a class, it is in the interests of all women, not because feminism is fighting the other isms.

Re the Rotherham and Rochdale scandals, when it comes to white middle class men using WOC as prostitutes it's exposed and clearly a violation.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/oxfam-prostitution-charity-aid-workers-haiti-un-peacekeepers-a8206646.html