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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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How do we scourge out racism and classism in feminism?

434 replies

Treesybreezy · 31/05/2018 17:00

I need to apologize upfront - I am disabled and also looking after a baby so I'm not going to be able to check back on this thread as frequently as I'd like. I will be back tho.

I've just read this by sister outrider sisteroutrider.wordpress.com/2018/01/15/dispatches-from-the-margins-on-women-race-and-class/amp/?__twitter_impression=true . I know there have been other threads where black women (or other ethnicities) have said, racism is a massive problem and there's been a large, reflexive defensive reaction from white women here.

I'm too tired to articulate this properly now in support of what sister outrider has said, but I've definitely seen both racism and classism in action.

How do we set this right?

OP posts:
Mamaoya · 03/06/2018 17:11

@PermissionToSpeakSir: Intersectionality was coined by the Black feminist Kimberlé Crenshaw to explain Black women’s specific oppression. Everyone in this thread thinking through how women belong to different identities and can’t be put in one box are using her theory - which itself built on decades of Black feminist thought.

Black women already “do” feminism and often more radically than white women because of the economic, political, social location Black women were/are acting from. Sojourner Truth literally calls this out in her Ain’t I A Woman speech to white women suffragettes like 150 years ago. Black women don’t need to be “included” in feminism - many of the most important ideas in feminism come from Black women’s thinking, organizing practices (how many feminist movements today rely on organizing strategies created - and appropriated by men - in the civil rights movement? Do you think the repeal campaign didn’t use strategies Black women understood, created, perfected? Literally the entire vocabulary of rights today is built on civil rights which was absolutely founded and driven by the unrecognized labour and organizing of black women.) we don’t need to be taught feminism - we never stopped being feminist (the survival of the people in enslavement was driven by black women).

People don’t even know the history gifted to them by the sacrifice of our foremothers that structures so many of their liberation strategies and then they want to know whether feminism actually should bother about black women at all and if it’s even about race?

I mean, Christ, I know who Emmeline Pankhurst and Mary Wollstonecraft are - is it too much to expect people to know histories of Black feminist women?

flashnazia · 03/06/2018 17:10

I really appreciate your contributions @Mamaoya

Mamaoya · 03/06/2018 16:56

Also, the idea that racism is just “well intentioned working class people using the wrong words and then being policed by super woke privileged POC” is ridiculously reductive.

Considering that someone on this thread tried to tell me slavery wasn’t an example of structural racism I realize that there may be confusion as to what racism is, and that, again, people have not really bothered to find out what they are talking about before very confidently asserting that they know what racism is (super woke people identity policing others, mostly, apparently) and how to fix it.

People take so much offence when you suggest they read and learn things like you’re threatening to send them to a re-education camp, but seriously, how can we have a critical useful discussion if people are just unwilling to know things?

Like the observation about black patriarchy and the assumption on this thread that black women/people/feminists never address this - have you read the Combahee River Collective statement by working class black lesbians from the 70s? How can you possibly claim that “nobody” challenges black patriarchy when the entire field of black feminist thought is about this and about their recognition of misogyny in the black power and civil rights movements? (Starting with books like Black Feminist Thought by Patricia Hill Collins, the collection This Bridge Called Our Backs, All the Women are White, All the Blacks Are Men, etc.) Soneone took the suggestion that people educate themselves as “performative woke signalling” but seriously - how can you think you can discuss these issues when you simply don’t know what you are talking about and so dismiss decades of feminist work out of ignorance? Do you know how offensive it is to claim that Black women and organizations never address black patriarchy? Go look up Alicia Garza’s tweets on Cosby, for example (the same BLM that was accused of defending Cosby!) When people are telling you to educate yourself and listen they’re not saying shut up white women, they’re saying there’s literally thousands of books and centuries of work (Sojourner Truth) talking about these things and it’s not reasonable to ignore it and continue talking as if it doesn’t exist. Again, how is that feminist?

By the way, a really great radical feminist book by the white butch lesbian Butch Lee is “Underground to Freedom: the rebiography of Harriet Tubman” that looks at the radical “Amazon” histories of Black women. “Military Strategies of Women and Girls” by the same author looks at liberal feminism and uncovers feminist histories around the world from Beguin nuns to Indigenous women to Nigerian women to undo the notion that feminism is only having more women generals and that there’s only a western, recent history of women’s history. People interested in challenging the idea that WOC have to be “included” in feminism - as though white women created and do feminism and other women don’t already have feminist practices - should read her work. I found it life changing. She is a truly radical writer who changed my thinking on feminism and also on how women can organize together in revolutionary ways.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 03/06/2018 16:37

Do expand mamaoya

PermissionToSpeakSir · 03/06/2018 16:36

It's so over used, when people use the word 'bigot' or 'bigoted' now, I think "blood-lusting, pampered, privileged pomo twat".

Mamaoya · 03/06/2018 16:34

I think the funniest part of the thread is how many people are using or referencing intersectionality theory - created by Black feminist scholars - while being confused as to whether feminism needs to include WOC.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 03/06/2018 16:33

Oh come on. You know that "in feminism" means "among feminist women".

JuzzaL · 03/06/2018 16:32

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JuzzaL · 03/06/2018 16:30

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JoanSummers · 03/06/2018 16:27

I'm out. People are using this thread to continue arguments from a deleted one. It's sunny outside, I'm going there instead.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 03/06/2018 16:27

Throwing the mud around eh jezza

JuzzaL · 03/06/2018 16:26

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PermissionToSpeakSir · 03/06/2018 16:26

It's strange, I'm white and I'm perfectly fine with it

Er- think you missed the point mate.

It is the smearing of feminist women that hits the nerve - I am fully aware that white people oppress other 'racialised' groups.

JoanSummers · 03/06/2018 16:23

Are we back to attacking white middle class women for being white and middle class?

PermissionToSpeakSir · 03/06/2018 16:23

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JuzzaL · 03/06/2018 16:21

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flashnazia · 03/06/2018 16:17

Oh right. So it's a conspiracy. Those tweets were made up then. The person under the same name who came here and defended them was fake too.

JuzzaL · 03/06/2018 16:17

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flashnazia · 03/06/2018 16:16

I think it's pragmatic to not support someone with problematic views for 2 reason:
1- don't give TRAs mud to throw. Someone with views like that brings the cause into disrepute. Why make us look like bigots? It's a chunk in the armour
2- giving someone with views like that a platform means people targeted by those views won't join the cause. I'm certainly thinking twice about attending any meeting when it's in my area and I really wanted to go.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 03/06/2018 16:15

What about all the gender critical people who are now seeing it as such, because of the wider reaction to recent events?

It all seems a bit well co-ordinated imo. And you are over stating it. Only the arse-splinter brigade are being meekly shepherded in this timely manner.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 03/06/2018 16:10

I think it is a misogynist position to support no-platforming women because you disagree with their opinion in areas they are not even being asked to speak about.

Are you not aware that women's speech is being specifically curtailed at the moment?

JuzzaL · 03/06/2018 16:08

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

flashnazia · 03/06/2018 16:08

@PermissionToSpeakSir
I don't know why you would think I'm a misogynist. Can't you quantity that statement?

flashnazia · 03/06/2018 16:06

@PermissionToSpeakSir
Where has anyone done that? Criticism of religion is fine if it's not ill-intentioned (e.g. a veiled attack on ppl who are different) but defending someone who tweets like Katie Hopkins lite (IMHO), making out she's a victim and supporting giving her a platform is what I was objecting to.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 03/06/2018 16:06

You are

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