How do we scourge out racism and classism in feminism?

How would you rephrase the title though?

It depends what the OP intended - maybe she meant it to have a whip-like sting to it, to berate women for being 'white' or middle class?

On reading the sister outrider article I was nodding and thinking how much of what she described rang true for me although it does not flow into my experience of wider structural inequality. Feminism has its own internal issues. I have never read the essay but an older feminist mentioned 'The tyranny of structuredlessness" and there''s a lot of pain all around. People holding one another to ridiculously high standards, suspicion, blowing hot and cold, using one-another as wheel-out testimony machines, being massively territorial, nepotism. She is not the only one disappointed in her 'tribe' and it isn't only BAME or working class women ducking out of the movement and feeling jaded. It isn't just 'white', middle class women acting like arseholes. It isn't just white, middle-class women holding the power within feminism.

So if what the OP meant was 'how do we address structural inequality within feminism?' Perhaps that would have been a less misogynist/antifeminist way of putting it, but I feel the op was being deliberately being inflammatory and it wouldn't have given the same satisfaction.

BeyondSceptical
Sorry, getting touchy obviously. Been a long day

PermissionToSpeakSir your post was insightful, thank you. How would you rephrase the title though?

I am sorry for not getting much time to read full threads at the moment and I have not seen what's happened bewilderness but your contribution is always valuable and the presence of older, knowledgeable feminists is essential. I have learned more from older feminists than I have learned through reading books, and the silencing of older women in the media, etc makes it even more crucial that the intergenerational conversation keeps going.

I just thought that scourge meant remove, I didn't know it had meanings beyond that, its not a word I use.

thebewilderness - I'm always grateful for the experience and 'the long view' you bring to these debates

PermissionToSpeakSir - yes those both sound awful don't they?

Women, the working class and BAME people are all oppressed groups.

If someone started a thread as either:

'How do we scourge out misogyny and racism from working class people who are fighting for their rights?'

Or

'How do we scourge out the misogyny and classism from BAME people who are fighting for their rights?'

People would be unanimous in condemning that phrasing.

Being BAME or working class is no free pass to be misogynist and antifeminist- eg defending a thread title which recommends that women, feminist women, are urgently and thoroughly punished into 'woke' compliance.

Sarcasm? Huh?

Thebewilderness are you feeling your age this weekend?

Yes I am.
We seem to be rediscovering what we should already know. Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

It gives me a sad and causes me to feel my age.

BeyondSceptical
I sense sarcasm??? It doesn't bother me but it has obviously hurt others. I've always found that persuading and building allies is the way to go when approaching anti racism. ' Eyes on the prize' Gloating 'touched a nerve?' is just an own goal.

Thebewilderness are you feeling your age this weekend? I had never seen you reference it before and always thought you fairly young til these last few days (though wise)

Sorry for the typos. Did not know the history that should read.

Are you offended by the word scourge instead of remove or something?

I personally was deeply offended at the proposition that the racism and classism in feminism be be beaten out of feminists, but I shrugged it off as someone who did know the religious and racist history of the scourge.

The truth is that you can't beat or bully people out of being ignorant, mistaken, ill informed, or just plain wrong. I do not have the patience to persuade people of the error of their ways any more, but there are many here who do.

my criticism is of youngish, privileged pomo twats bastardising intersectional theory to vent misogyny and centre white men in feminism

Yes, I'm reminded of all the coverage of the women's march in the US where white women were continually castigated (almost universally by other white people) for the % of white women who voted for trump. I don't know how much of an overlap there was between women who voted for trump and women who went on a women's march but I can't imagine it's very big. There were no constructive suggestions for what white female attendees should do about all the white women who voted for trump. The message seemed to be that they should just feel bad, sit down, shut up and listen to Cherno Biko or whichever other abusive TIM had been wheeled out locally.

So much of what passes for radical left politics now is not based in any grassroots organizing work or actual activity. I read a good article the other day about how it’s precisely because it doesn’t require any actual labour that “twitter wokeness” has become the central way in which people feel like they’re doing politics on the left.

I agree with this. What did you think of the statement I posted upthread from the woman who runs a community project in Deptford? It mirrors my experience on the ground.

I also disagree with people saying that telling people to 'educate themselves' is classist.

This goes far beyond us lot debating here and it absolutely is classist. Same question to you, what do you think of the Deptford project statement upthread?

Yeah when you think about it, the idea of whipping people into shape is probably a tad dodgy - given who is more likely to have been whipped in the UK historically.
Or maybe that is why it was chosen? I guess only op can answer that.

Thank you for your black feminism info mama, I will have a look for the books you mentioned.

TacoLover
I understand the feelings about 'scourge'. The definition is linked to chastising, vengeance or punishment, a scourge being a whip. It's hard to see it being applied to an ideology and not individuals. I think it was a strange choice -synonyms are beat, castigate, chastise. It's actually pretty full on. Alternatives could be eliminate, address.

I wrote a long response and it disappeared and don't have time to rewrite apols

Thank you Mamaoya for that insightful post. I also disagree with people saying that telling people to 'educate themselves' is classist. If people are debating on a forum they have access to the Internet. Doing a bit of research is essential in today's age when discussing issues like these.

PermissionToSpeakSir where on this thread has anyone tried to centre men in feminism?

Taco the title is far more strongly worded than that. Perhaps you don't sense it because you believe you are above reproach in your wokeness.
I'm honestly so confused how you can be offended by the title. Are you offended by the word scourge instead of remove or something? Because there is racism and classist within feminism. That is a fact. I don't know how you can be offended by that?

@PermissionToSpeak: no argument from me about the focus on language and individual indentity rather than organizing. So much of what passes for radical left politics now is not based in any grassroots organizing work or actual activity. I read a good article the other day about how it’s precisely because it doesn’t require any actual labour that “twitter wokeness” has become the central way in which people feel like they’re doing politics on the left.

So yes, I agree that language policing is not as central as, say, women organizing to fight landlords or run shelters or save women from abusive relationships or run literacy programs for each other etc etc. But I also don’t agree that therefore racism isn’t structural and real.

I personally think one strong way we fight inequality by organizing together and doing the hard work collectively to figure out how to problem solve.

BTW I am not saying Black feminists don't challenge Patriarchy (or are not key to feminism)- my criticism is of youngish, privileged pomo twats bastardising intersectional theory to vent misogyny and centre white men in feminism. Although much of what you said is obviously referring to other posts than mine.

Thanks mamaoya for expanding.

Mamaoya

www.law.columbia.edu/pt-br/news/2017/06/kimberle-crenshaw-intersectionality

Meant to post this link for you.