How do we scourge out racism and classism in feminism?

How about opening out a bit. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35504185 Muslim women 'stopped from becoming Labour councillors' There was no response from Corbyn to this plea, rather like his response to anti Semitism. The Muslim Womens Network site is interesting. Apparently there's a case 're forced marriage going through court at the moment .Like FGM there have been few if any successful prosecutions. This is intersectionality: religion meets sex. I asked L.P. 're their policy on tackling FGM and forced marriage in their review and didn't get a response.
How do we link into and support these activists?

"Working class people understand structural racism "

The examples you gave were overt, not structural racism.

Mamaoya How could white women help in making you and other WoC feel included? Is there something about feminism you feel is exclusionary? I want to know, I want to learn, I want you to feel and be included.

And, by the way, working class people have long histories of solidarity with Black people, for example. It was Manchester cotton mill workers who recognized their oppression in the mill was tied to African slaves in the cotton fields. It was Liverpool dock workers who recognized that their oppression on the docks was connected to goods shipped from plantations. It was indentured Irish in America who initially joined with enslaved Africans against their masters. Working class people banded together in the East End to turn away marching fascists. Working class people understand structural racism even if the exact term isn’t used because they live the reality that racism is created to divide the white working class and racialized people from taking common cause against their oppressors. Racism is not a working class heritage and working class people have been in the front lines fighting it for generations.

What is happening on this board with the way WOC are being treated has nothing to do with plain speaking working class people oppressed by identity politics. Please don’t insult the radical anti-colonial labour histories of solidarity by blaming racism on them.

Funny, when I look up racism in the dictionary it says nothing about it being prejudice plus power, just prejudice.

Where do you get this definition from?

@picassospaintbrush: I know we were back and forthing a bit on the now deleted thread, but I appreciate your sharing parts of your background and history. It’s very interesting and helpful!

We need to listen, many things about different cultures we may not understand and that's fine. Listen to what these women tell us and let us learn from their experiences. We, white women can't understand the WoC perspective because we haven't lived it. WoC can't understand our perspective because they haven't lived it. The major thing is, I think, we are all women. That is what counts and what we need to remember.

"I think a lot of (working class but not limited to working class) people understand "racism" as personal prejudice but not as structural inequality. And yes, everyone does need an education about this - personal prejudice + structural inequality = racism. "

How are you going to educate the people of, say, Merthyr Tydfil, on how structural inequality is racism? Not going to go down too well I shouldn't think.

How do you think we can best get rid of classism from feminism, Juzza?

Proved your point how?

I'm not on multiple forms of social media and I haven't had time to read all of these threads, I've been doing mum duties for a lot of the day. You appear to be comparing what women have said here to the dehumanising and sexualised things that men, mostly affluent white men, are saying to and about women from minority groups. I don't think that is fair and I am asking you to reconsider or explain that comparison.

Do you think it is unreasonable to ask you that? Do you think that asking you that affirms all your assumptions about me?

Correction to previous post

a political representative (allegedly) for women suggesting that Muslim women need "reeducating"

Are those fair comparisons JuzzaL?

When TRAs say "Transwomen are women like black women are women" they are literallt saying that black women are just as much (or not) women as trans identified males. This is supposed to a) tap into white supremacist ideas of black women not being 'proper' women and b) appropriate the battle black women have fought to have their womanhood recognised. Has anyone here said anything comparable to that?

When TRAs attack lesbians it is in ways that are highly sexualised - the cotton ceiling for example is a direct accusation that lesbians who do not open themselves sexually to male people who id as trans are committing a hate crime. Has anyone here said anything like that, or pushed any similar pressure on to young lesbians discovering their sexuality? Are women here guilt tripping lesbians into unwanted sex with them with social pressure?

Madigan is a political figure whose role is to represent and support women, including Muslim women. There is a huge difference between women, mostly feminists, criticising religious practices, and a political representative (allegedly) for women suggesting that Muslim need "reeducating" into lowering their boundaries for male benefit.

So easy for white, heterosexual, non-Muslims to sit there and say this isn't racist, this isn't Islamophobic, this isn't homophobic, this isn't transphobic.

That is a lot of assumptions you are making about many of us in this discussion. Several (most?) of us aren't even saying any of that, just that we want to listen and talk and ask questions about this stuff as we think that is a good way to learn about each other and build solidarity as women. That women from all different walks of life are going to have problematic assumptions about each other that need challenging.

Are your comparisons fair? I don't think so, but I'm prepared for you to argue your point?

This thread has opened my eyes re how issues are discussed according to class and how working class people can be shut out of debate and silenced. I am ashamed I didn't recognise this before and I have some classism within myself to work on. THANK YOU

I think maybe this whole thing has been stoked from people who don't care about us.

Of course it has. But acknowledging that doesn't end the discussion.

Well said, Italian.

Husband just gave me an example of classism in trans discourse.

There is no qualitative difference in saying that transwomen are male people performing femininity and saying transwomen are men in dresses. The meaning is exactly the same. Yet the former is deemed controversial but acceptable while the latter is deemed offensive outright transphobia. Why, when the meaning is identical? Classism. The ability to access academic and/or philosophical language to make a point. This is as exclusionary as anything else.

And something to have a good long ponder over!

@LangCleg "I think a lot of (working class but not limited to working class) people understand "racism" as personal prejudice but not as structural inequality. And yes, everyone does need an education about this..."

I think this is very important. Those of us who are white (I am) may really have not understood institutionalized racism. I think there is lots we can learn. But a vital bit of 'learning' is being open to it and receptive.

I really think we females are stronger together and feminism is something that can bring us together.

If someone makes a comment we don't agree with, we can discuss, we can ignore, we can find a way forward. We don't need to dissolve into a goey mess. We are worth more than that!

I think maybe this whole thing has been stoked from people who don't care about us.

We really are stronger together. I'm really sorry for any who have been upset by these debates. But I think we need to move forward together. for all you fabulous females of any class/colour/background. Xxxxxx

This thread is titled how do we scourge out racism and classism in feminism - well, the way to scourge out racism is not to go about it in a classist way, any more than the way to scourge out classism is to go about it in a racist way.

The woketopians are very good at identifying racism but fucking dreadful at identifying classism.

Yy.

I think a lot of (working class but not limited to working class) people understand "racism" as personal prejudice but not as structural inequality. And yes, everyone does need an education about this - personal prejudice + structural inequality = racism.

However, telling someone who has no personal prejudice but does not understand structural inequality that they are racist because they're politically unsavvy and say "wrong things" is not the way to go.

This thread is titled how do we scourge out racism and classism in feminism - well, the way to scourge out racism is not to go about it in a classist way, any more than the way to scourge out classism is to go about it in a racist way.

The woketopians are very good at identifying racism but fucking dreadful at identifying classism.

TBH racism amongst those who have no power is far less of a problem than racism amongst those in power.

The problem has been that for an age the government has utilised all the isms to impose poverty.

It is entirely unsurprising if the poorest people are most concerned about poverty or that the language they use to describe their conditions reflects that of the government’s policies.

This is not the same as being racist; single mums/foreigners ‘getting houses’ is what everyone is told to think. Poorer people say it more often because it is more important as an issue for them personally. Most people share the view.

The issue remains one of poverty, insecurity and access to services.