How do we scourge out racism and classism in feminism?

I'm no expert bewildereness but as far i as i know that's pretty much what happened on the infamous deleted thread.

MistAmougstElephants
You are right. I lost my temper. I apologize to those who were trying to have a discussion.

ust to be clear, people think the way to end racism isn’t, say, white people holding each other accountable and challenging bigotry and refusing to condone racism, but rather WOC being nice to racists, accepting that racists just don’t know and couldn’t possibly learn better, not asserting ourselves, not posting to defend ourselves, not saying anything to challenge racist views, accepting that the only problem with racism is the language we use, - and, in short, that the only problem with racism really is WOC who have the nerve to speak about it or expecting white people to do any work to educate themselves, listen, read, etc.

What people are these that think this?

Just to be clear, people think the way to end racism isn’t, say, white people holding each other accountable and challenging bigotry and refusing to condone racism, but rather WOC being nice to racists, accepting that racists just don’t know and couldn’t possibly learn better, not asserting ourselves, not posting to defend ourselves, not saying anything to challenge racist views, accepting that the only problem with racism is the language we use, - and, in short, that the only problem with racism really is WOC who have the nerve to speak about it or expecting white people to do any work to educate themselves, listen, read, etc.

How does challenging sexism by being nice, not challenging men, not being such a b—-chy feminist, setting low bars for men who “just need time to learn”, tone policing, sitting back and waiting work for any of you feminists? Is it ok when men whine about how are they supposed to know how to not sexually harass women, etc.? So why is this what WOC are expected to do, otherwise we’re the ones victimizing and harassing white women?

But at the same time, also, educate white women or its our fault if there’s racism in feminism, but also, be ok with being degraded by those women because otherwise we are divisive, elitist, using language wrong, etc.

Maybe singling out a poster like JuzzaL and declaring consporacy theories derails a thread?

Idk just putting it out there.

Bashing women because you're a bigot is counter productive.

Thank you for that, JuzzaL. There was a risk that some had not yet recognized what they were seeing.

JuzzaL, on the internet no one knows if you are a potato.

JuzzaL

You cannot force people on the interwebs to talk about what you want the way you want them to.
Derailing another thread to continue bashing women because they failed to live up to your unrealistic expectations is counter productive.

What I think Juzza is doing is bringing an argument from another thread - which I purposely ignored because it was a fist fight and not a productive discussion - to yet another thread. What I think is that this thread will now descend into a load of pointless arguing past each other - and ruin the beginnings of constructive dialogue.

I'm beginning to think this is Juzza's deliberate purpose.

Glad to know I am not alone.
I have seen this happen to Feminist forums before and I find it very worrisome. If it is not stopped it will be all woman bashing and misunderstanding all the time and then it will be a ghost town.
I have suspected for weeks that that is the goal.

My mum was a social worker and talked to me a lot about unintended consequences.

The skill of social work depends upon the ability to analyse power imbalances and relationships and to reflect on the possible harm of any interventions they themselves make. The good ones - and I'm sure your mum was one of those! - can tell you a lot of important things. I have an older cousin who has just retired from social work and I genuinely believe I've learned more from her than I have from anyone or anything else - just by listening to her reflect on her own work.

I'm not really up for scourging anything out of anywhere to be honest. it all sounds a bit dramatic.

I read the letter to Laurie Penny that LangCleg posted with interest, regarding classism, maybe that's part of it: looking at what people do rather than what they say. of course for randoms on the internet, all you've generally got to go on is what they say.

I think it's also important to understand that as a fairly privileged person (which I am), there will be lots going on that you don't necessarily get straight away because unless you make an effort you won't perceive the structural inequalities at play. My mum was a social worker and talked to me a lot about unintended consequences. This reminds me of conversations with her.

I want to know Juzza's productive, constructive suggestions for banishing classism from feminism.

LangCleg I was on that thread, however you won't get a bun-fight from me, this is an issue that I feel is extremely important. Let's leave the old thread where it is and concentrate on these issues.

How are you going to educate the people of, say, Merthyr Tydfil, on how structural inequality is racism? Not going to go down too well I shouldn't think.

By not shouting racist at them when they say something in the "wrong" way, welcoming them into spaces where they can hear other perspectives without being sneered at, and come to better mutual understandings with others while others come to better understandings with them.

I want to be sure you understand, JuzzaL, that those of us who are neither white nor middle class can see what you are doing here.

What I think Juzza is doing is bringing an argument from another thread - which I purposely ignored because it was a fist fight and not a productive discussion - to yet another thread. What I think is that this thread will now descend into a load of pointless arguing past each other - and ruin the beginnings of constructive dialogue.

I'm beginning to think this is Juzza's deliberate purpose.

Oh, I don't know Lang, listen to working class people, stop centering white middle class women, stop belittling working class people by assuming they know nothing of structural inequality.

What makes you think I'm either white or middle class?

(Just to be clear, in case it comes across as such, none of that is intended as any kind of dig at you.)

If you don't want me to think that, why repeat my words almost verbatim?

JoanSummers Agree. People can't be put into just one box, we are many things. I am looking at how to aid WoC as feel as women that might (and I say that hesitantly) be easier than to rid society of class prejudice. Class wars are in many ways dictated by men and they are not going to give it all up easily. I feel as women if we can do something to help minority women then they will take it back to their communities and feel more empowered.

I always feel a little nervous speaking about racial issues as I'm worried I might say something out of turn. This is why I want to learn about WoC and their experiences so I know how I could best help them. I feel if we could get WoC on board and have them feel like they belong and are valued we can make wider societal changes.

The working class isn't just white and heterosexual and neither is the middle class and I don't know what it achieves to pretend that all of us in any single group are the same in all ways or unanimous mous in our opinion, or that we don't simultaneously belong to other groups too (black and disabled, Muslim and gay, white and impoverished, etc). It's like the conversations today have just been splitting people into a single identity each and forgetting our crossovers and similarities.

The global system of enslavement embedded into economies, politics, social systems, law, manufacturing, etc. and still having effects on policing, poverty, housing, educational outcomes, incarceration, family composition, etc. wasn’t structural? How are you defining structural racism?

@Tacolover Your input here would be invaluable.

That is a lot of assumptions you are making about many of us in this discussion.

And you proved my point.

I want to be sure you understand, JuzzaL, that those of us who are neither white nor middle class can see what you are doing here.

Those experiences and histories are not universal to all working class people. Most of the people I have known in my life may not see themselves as racist or even act in racist ways but im sure the ones who have done critical analysis of white supremacy as structural oppression are in a minority, and I'm sure most don't know all the 'correct' vocabulary and concepts so as not to offend, even unintentionally.

What is happening at the moment contains the assumption that for anyone to be welcome to join the discussion they must be on step X of understanding and vocabulary re homophobia and racism etc. And of course that impacts working class people who for the most part do not have access to all of that in the same way, or don't use language in the same way or don't have the same expectations. I am offended all the time with the way people like me are treated and spoken to and about by the 'civilised' middle class but I have no expectation that they will understand why without engaging in conversation about it with them. I get what is behind the frustration that stops people wanting to have these discussions but we still need to do it or we go nowhere.