Posie

Children should not be obliged to play along with it though. It's against safeguarding rules.

Depends the extent they are asked to play along though. If they are told that [mum] was born a woman and gave birth to you, but now prefers to be called Robbie and has a beard, I can't see that being a big problem. If they are told outright lies, that is a different matter.

But Posie's position is that anyone who rejects being female (which you can't really reject because it is an unalterable state) should not be permitted to give birth to children. I can't get my head around how gender dysphoria should render someone ineligible for parenthood. Maybe someone will ask that question of her at the Cornwall meeting.

In an ideal world I think people would love their kids enough to not want to royally fuck them up and transition.

I know too many families completely fucked up by Daddy/husband becoming Mummy.... I can't see why I'd think it was okay the other way around. I too think this about parents who have affairs and wreck their families....

Once you become a parent some choices are off limits, I don't think that should be controversial.

I've said repeatedly that I don't think forced sterilisation is something I support for women, certainly with the detransition rates.

Elendon yes there is a difference, a mistake is a mistake especially if there is an ambiguous presentation. Deliberate is harassment, I agree.

There is no need for 'PC gorn mad' on this Super

Oh come on! Do you remember when people used to say that about accusations of homophobia and racism? PC gorn mad it is. Or have I missed your point?

SupermatchGame I suggest you think about what I actually said.

Well thank you for your suggestion Charlie, I do quite often find myself thinking about what you have said.

Yes of course OnThisHill. But Twitter isn't private capacity. Neither is this forum. Or the media. Or any public building. They are services. We can all say what we like in the privacy of our own homes or amongst friends. Just like there are people who use racist and homophobic language, no doubt all the time in a private capacity.

Surely under self id you make a declaration of your intention to live the rest of your life as a man. Would becoming pregnant and giving birth, as something only a woman can do, be evidence of fraud? Or do we accept the concept of pregnant men as TRAs demand and game over. It is essentially a philosophical point, all this talk of eugenics is hyperbole.

Re this: Can't you just say that trans men are biologically female but that they are totally free to use male names, male pronouns and to modify their bodies and live the lives they wish? Is that not the case?

Children should not be obliged to play along with it though. It's against safeguarding rules.

For god's sake @Lutece that's your view and summation. Please stop putting words into people's mouths. It's most offensive.

Can't you just say that trans men are biologically female but that they are totally free to use male names, male pronouns and to modify their bodies and live the lives they wish? Is that not the case?

I'm more than happy with that. As long as everyone else isn't obliged to play along. And therein lies the problem.

Thank you RevisionCards

That's a sensible approach (and covers all legal matters too).

Do you include in that people who transition after having children?

Evidently. If dysphoria is such a load of bullshit though, why do people put themselves through it? What actual advantage do they gain from saying they feel so disgusted by their own bodies that they need to alter them fundamentally? Why do MH professionals not agree that it is bullshit?

Another thing I am struggling with is that people have said in the past that they support someone to present however they like, but that changing sex is not possible. I agree, it is not possible to change biological sex. But are people who are saying it is wrong to remove your breasts and take testosterone really saying that people are free to be whoever they want to be? Can't you just say that trans men are biologically female but that they are totally free to use male names, male pronouns and to modify their bodies and live the lives they wish? Is that not the case?

PosieParker

So essentially what you are saying is in your opinion, and if the world danced to your tune, people would not have reproductive autonomy?
Well trans people at least?

So as well as suggesting sterilisation for trans men, you dislike people like trans women who also chose to have a family before coming out or transitioning..

So you would prefer a system of reproductive gatekeeping?

And this is a feminist board, on a forum to support parents? Wow.

Thanks RevisionCards, useful info.

Round we go again.

A major objection that is used again and again on this board is that transitioning of young people is bad because it may affect their fertility in ways they are not mature enough to fully comprehend and give consent to.

But according to above post, and others in a similar vein, if a trans person wants to make use of their fertility then that is taken to mean they are ridiculous and that their experience of dysphoria is bullshit.

Don't see how you put that together

1. Don't trans kids because a) they may desist, b) it is harmful/damaging to health c) it is living a lie because you can't change sex.

1. Telling the world you will top yourself unless everyone pretends you've changed sex, then go on to use your sexed organs to reproduce = you have been dicking the world around making them pretend along with your lies.

Two entirely different things.

Hi - I've been lurking all day, hope you don't mind me dropping in. Just wanted to say - not sure whether this has been covered - but according to the GRA the trans status of the parent doesn't have an affect on (in this case) 'his' status as the mother of the child. That's for the child's right to know where she comes from - so if they were adopted or whatever, the 'life story' would say that he's the mother, and on the birth cert, the mother will be registered as the mother - regardless of assigned gender. Not sure whether that's helpful really. I looked it up over that trans rights repeal the 8th argument - Just been on my mind!

*@supermatchgame

I have just read the stuff in the link. I think that all applies to harassment in the workplace or BY people in a workplace (down the pub and barstaff keep calling a trans sir if they want to be called miss)?

I might be wrong? Otherwise there would be thousands of people every day being legislated against. What do you think?

I and many others are in trouble if I'm wrong...

SupermatchGame I suggest you think about what I actually said.

Regardless of what the law says, individuals are free to hold positions that disagree on the issue. For crying out loud, we've just witnessed history being made in Ireland where the law said one thing and millions of people had a different position on the issue and now the law is being changed!

And you have been told countless times before that this legislation does not cover private people acting in a private capacity. I can call any random transwoman "he" as often as I like in conversation with other people in private and it's perfectly legal for me to do so.

There is no need for 'PC gorn mad' on this Super

I think Jenner would agree with Parker on that one.

No need for the Wow!

It's continuous misgendering though Super. There is a difference. If I called someone he and didn't know they were transgender, calling it once is not an offence.

If after knowing they were transgender and I continued to not call them by their preferred gender then that is harassment.

"Because I think it's shit to have babies if you cannot accept your own sex. I feel the same way about men, like Jenner, who transition."

Wow.

Do you include in that people who transition after having children?

Even Jenner accepts that their children call them dad.

Jenner said so on a channel 4 programme.

I remember when Jenner won the Olympic gold medal - for a men's event.

And we have always been at war with Eurasia.

And they have many different positions on pronouns, sharing spaces and what rights they are willing to concede to post-op and medically transitioning people.

There is no 'different position' on pronouns. The Equality and Human Rights Committee have made it clear that misgendering is harassment.
www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination#what

There is harassment and not harassment. That is it.

Because I think it's shit to have babies if you cannot accept your own sex. I feel the same way about men, like Jenner, who transition.

"I would say transmen who see themselves as men shouldn't carry babies.... "

Why not Posie? And let's start from the point where the person wanting to carry a pregnancy has taken medical advice on board and is not taking any medication deemed harmful to a foetus.

HarryLovesDraco thanks for posting that - it actually brought some clarity to my thinking.

What I object to so strongly is the generalisation being made here:

Gentle reminder that “gender critical” people aren’t just abhorrently prejudiced against trans women, they think disgusting, vile stuff like this about trans men too

Having now met a huge number of people from all walks of life who oppose self-id, from anarchist lefty backgrounds over centrists all the way to religious right wingers, there's actually a huge disparity in what they believe regarding trans people.

The GC feminists I met are accepting of trans people, supportive of their struggle and rights as well as concerned about women's rights and the safeguarding of children. And they have many different positions on pronouns, sharing spaces and what rights they are willing to concede to post-op and medically transitioning people.

The religious (right and left - and yes lefty religious people do exist) are completely split into many different responses to trans people too - some are supportive, some are not, some are outright hateful. Most however are not the least bit gender critical - that's a feminist position and most of the very religious people I've met don't agree with feminist beliefs either.

However, TRAs like the one who wrote that tweet do not distinguish between a position that says trans people are an abomination or those who say they should not be allowed to transition on the NHS and those who say yes to trans rights and to supporting trans people but maintain that it isn't possible for mammals to change sex or that gender ideology enforces harmful gender stereotypes.

The TRA default position is that unless you accept all of their ideology, you're a despiccable evil bigot.

So Posie tweets a thing in a standalone tweet and TRAs take it as proof of what they already and always accuse all GC people of - that we hate them and everything about them.

But that's clearly a nonsense. Those opposed to self-id have wide-ranging views and given their vastly differing backgrounds that should come as no surprise.

I see absolutely no point in demanding that only those whose views otherwise align with mine be allowed to join me in this fight, which is why I disagree with vilifying Posie in this way.

Her position that transmen who want to live and be recognised as men should be sterilised is mainstream in many, many countries - and many transmen do actually want to be and/or accept that this is the outcome of transitioning. I don't need to agree with her to understand why Posie thinks what she thinks.

WPUK made a decision based on how they wish to be perceived and I actually don't have a problem with that - freedom of speech does not equal freedom from consequences after all. I don't agree with their reasoning or how they did it. I honestly thought better of them and therefore fully expected them to contact Posie first to let her know they were not happy and what they wanted to do because of that. But WPUK is also just made up of individuals who have their own flaws.

IMHO Posie's words have not made a blind bit of difference to TRAs other than giving them one more soundbite out of many hundreds of utterings made by GC people daily - it's no worse than Long's parasitic squatters for instance.

I've seen so many words twisted and taken out of context by TRAs, some even edited and manipulated to make them seem transphobic and that's why I cannot get pissed off at Posie for what she said as "damaging to the cause".

The cause is damaging to TRAs and no matter how softly we tread and how uncontroversial we behave, we will always be the enemy. With or without Posie.