It's Serious

It is serious.... very serious.

I like others like the anonymity of Mumsnet - I do not want my name circulated on the internet nor my children to be threatened .... I am concerned how I would be affected at work.

That said I am a proud founder member of ManFriday and am talking to many people about it, including those in influential positions - and not just on Fridays!

I have to say I made my daughter block some of those channels. Not that I am afraid she would get confused but I just don't like the way they talk about what it means to be female. Sets my teeth on edge.

It's all over social media, it's being pushed and I can imagine that it's very easy for children to get sucked in by it. That Riley on youtube is talking to children, not adults.

Oh sorry

Should say I completely agree with this

I don't propose to know how much is the right decision though, I don't think anybody could

Its who ultimately makes this decision which is the concerning part

i probably do have an issue as the side effects of puberty blockers can be harmful

Well thats why i said the above about the children

I dont think the vast majority of 10 or 11 year olds are able to make such a decision as studies appear to show that 80% of gender questioning children are not trans

And i really dont like the idea of playing russian roulette

If puberty blockers didnt have such potentially damaging consequences then id have no problem whatsoever

I have absolutely said that medical treatment in an adult can be very helpful...and so have others on FWR

And in children? Of course there are side effects; there are side effects of all sorts of drugs which treat our children. I don't personally feel best placed to weight up the pros and cons in every single case; and whilst I accept that doctors aren't perfect (Christ do I know it!) I'd rather they be able to make that decision than have the option of puberty blockers etc. permanently removed from prescribers.

(I was specifically referring to children; I know you and others have no problems with grown-ups doing as they please.)

Doctors and medical professionals fuck up as much as every other human being, they arent always right

Agreed! ...but they aren't always wrong, either. So maybe some portion of the use of puberty blockers etc. in young people is in fact the right decision? As right as anybody can be that is. I don't propose to know how much is the right decision though, I don't think anybody could.

aybe have a bit more humility in the face of our country's leading medical professionals in the field

And no

Doctors and medical professionals fuck up as much as every other human being, they arent always right

I have yet to see any GC poster on here ever say that sometimes a doctor will know what they're doing in the best interests of their patient and that puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones will have greatly improved the quality of life for the person involved

I have absolutely said that medical treatment in an adult can be very helpful...and so have others on FWR

If you are specifically referring to children and medicalisation then i probably do have an issue as the side effects of puberty blockers can be harmful

sanluca
You may find some relevant info/discussion which relate to your concerns via the twitter account below. It records a number of personal experiences of females who have detransitioned.

twitter.com/FtMdetransed?lang=en-gb

Rat, thanks fior the reply and also thank you for the others. See, what concerns me is that there doesn't seem to be much data gathering. I know the numbers for referrals and I cannot believe a lot of people look at them and don't go: what is going on here?
Yes, part of the increase will be the increase in acceptance of transchildren, but it is extremely naive to think peer pressure (as in being seen as cool and trendy), puberty confusion and sexuality confusion don't play a big part.
I think the increase in girls is because girls being masculine is more acceptable than boys being feminine. I would like to know if the dramatic increase is also visible for boys but after they have left school for example and are a bit older.
I would also like to know what the detransition rate is for a group that receives counseling as opposed to a group that chooses medication.
And lastly it would be great if we also knew more about translives after a decade after transitioning, 20 years after etc. However I see little to no research being done/allowed. It seems society is jumping into this blind and that is concerning.

@Terfulike you may have posted after a few but you are right, it is serious.
The figures showing the rise in referrals, especially of young girls, is really scary. The pushing of the trans agenda in schools, the influence the TRSs have and the silencing of women's voices- yes definitely frightening.

I'm not going to put myself on here, but lots of us are taking action and doing what we can . As individuals we can only do so much, together? We are unstoppable.

A lot of stories that get told by parents seem to involve the child liking feminine dress and toys "liking pink

There is discussion the possibility of common narratives here:
(extract)
"Thus, the association of pink with girls is itself cultural; devoid of culture, pink has no meaning with respect to the preferences of children, or even adults, of either sex. Notably in the stories for young transgender females, many include a rejection of pink, dresses and princesses, the diametric opposite of the stories from transgender males."
mirandayardley.com/en/common-threads-and-narratives-of-transgender-children-and-what-this-means-for-our-lesbian-and-gay-populations/

The suddenly rise in referrals is very worrying and it's mostly girls.

I mean there has to be a middle ground, don't you think?

This echoes Polly Carchicael's position I think, which she and then Kirkup expand.
(extract from the Spectator article above)

Polly Carmichael “Gender has become amazingly topical and we have to be really careful not to assume that anyone is exploring or questioning their gender is going to want to change their bodies in line with that. The extremes on either side are not helpful. We need to look at the grey areas in between. To do that we need to be able to talk and discuss these issues. All too often stakeholders become lobby groups.”

She did not name any stakeholder. But her words might be relevant to a charity called Mermaids. Mermaids is a charity that describes itself as “a support group for children and young people with gender dysphoria and their families”. Its CEO, Susie Green describes herself as “parent to a daughter who was born male.” Mermaids is a relatively small charity (it had income of £127,000 in the year to March 2017) with a big reach. It has prominent backers and its advice and recommendations have been absorbed and adopted by many public bodies."

Oh you were drunk!
I was wondering what the "stomping laughing giggling" was about, I was awake till 3 but decided you were a TRA gathering targets.

Growing up female, he’d always preferred to wear boys’ clothes and play the male character in online games; at secondary school, after he cut his hair short, many teachers assumed he was a boy. It was seeing a trans character on Hollyoaks and then reading blogs by young trans people on Tumblr that made him realise he could be transgender

Guardian extract.

That could have been me as a girl except for two things - no Hollyoaks, no Tumblr - in fact no internet. I'm pretty ancient.

I grew up to be heterosexual, long-time married, mother and grandmother.

Wonder how many older women are just like me and did not have the "advantages" of the internet to convince them they were the wrong sex (I refuse to say gender as it is totally meaningless salad speak for stereotype).

I'm not saying there aren't massive failings possible gender - that truly would be naive - and I assure you I'm not that. What I am is a realist. Because equally it's a bit tin-foil-hatty to paint the whole thing notion of medical help for transgender children as an unforgivable abomination. I mean there has to be a middle ground, don't you think?

There may be failings, and undoubtedly there will be successes too.

I have yet to see any GC poster on here ever say that sometimes a doctor will know what they're doing in the best interests of their patient and that puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones will have greatly improved the quality of life for the person involved.

It would indeed be naive to suggest there was no possible avenue for concern. And when people suggest there is no possible avenue for benefit, what would you call that? Some would call it gross demonisation and scaremongering.

I find your post so naive Rat. Frighteningly so.

James Kirkup referred to the lecture by Polly Carmichael in his article
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

(extract)
"In 2009/10, the GIDS had 97 children referred, of whom 40 were listed as “assigned female at birth.” In 2016/17, the GIDS had 2016 children referred, of whom 1400 were assigned female at birth. The total caseload for the service rose 2,078 per cent in seven years. The number of assigned females being referred rose 3,500 per cent in seven years. Why have the numbers risen in this way? Is there a clear and undisputed explanation, which would render Lord Tebbit’s suggested research into causation redundant?

This is an issue addressed by Dr Polly Carmichael, who runs the GIDS, in a recent talk to the Association for Child and Adolescent Mental Health. In her thoughtful hour-long lecture, she said this:

“The rapid rise in the number of assigned females…. exemplifies the importance of keeping discourse open and allowing different voices to be heard.

“You might say the increase in the numbers of assigned females coming forward is [because] that it’s easier for females to talk about their gender-diverse feelings so what we are seeing is an increase in awareness getting towards a better representation of the true prevalence of this among females.

“A converse explanation, a question: are there issues for young women around how they perceive their gender? There has been a worry by some that people who would previously have had an outcome around sexuality are now having an outcome around gender.”

Hey sanluca, wish I had a bit more time on my hands to hit Google and find some actual stats, but unfortunately now is not my moment! What I will tell you is the broad strokes though, as I understand them. That might help when you go looking for stats.

So the number of kids referred to gender clinics has risen very much as far as I know. That says nothing of what treatment they receive there of course, simply that their doctor has recognised that they are presenting in such a way that warrants the attention of a specialist. I don't think that's sinister personally, and perhaps there are stats on how many children simply walk away from those clinics with their situations resolved with no actual intervention, I don't know.

Undoubtedly the use of puberty blockers/cross sex hormones will have increased in the last decade because . In years gone by the number of people who fully transitioned in their lifetime will not have all received blockers or hormones when surely it would have been a benefit to them, given that they did eventually transition.

So the only real stats that would have any value I suppose would be how many children have actually received treatment that has not gone on to be beneficial in terms of a full transition. And of those how many have suffered any actual negative effects of that treatment.

Like you say it may be the case that once started on treatment there is an incentive to carry on to full transition - so the numbers of those fully transitioning today vs. in the past would be useful, to see if that number is stable. Also feedback from those who have completely transitioned as to what impact that had on their decision and if they remain happy with it.

Finally the stats on how many did not receive treatment at a young age who feel that negatively affected their future if they then went on to transition.

If you have all three of these we might have a clearer view on whether or not our doctors are doing a decent job!

Link to long interview with Stephanie Davies Arai

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3258165-stephanie-davies-arai-transgender-trend

Guardian article identifying some of the differences between Mermaids & Transgender Trend:
www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/15/transgender-row-teachers-afraid-challenge-breast-binding

LOL Terfulike. No need to apologise, you are not the first or last to post when a bit pissed. Have done it myself too.

But yes, it's pretty fraught out there. TRAs are gunning for women who speak out, or even speak between themselves, about this subject. Even attending the public meetings is stressful and frightening, because there are masked protesters chanting and jeering at you, taking pics etc. I'm self employed so they can't get me sacked, but there certainly have been attempts to do so with women who speak about it

Link to Dr Polly Carmichael's lecture to the Association for Child and Adolescent Mental Health. She discusses the 'evidence base, dilemmas and debate'.
Dr Carmichael is head of Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) of the Tavistock and Portman Trust, which is the NHS centre of excellence for helping children and adolescents with gender dsyphoria and other issues of gender-variance.

soundcloud.com/user-664361280/dr-polly-carmichael-developments-and-dilemmas

Rat, can I ask if you, or anyone else, have data on kids (as in under 18) who have changed gender, use puberty blockers, use hormones offset against all kids. And then across the laat decade or so. Just curious what the growth is and how concerned we need to be.

Leaving surgery out of the list as I don't think that happens?

Still against giving kids any medications though and would prefer counseling first. I know people thinks this is wrong but I believe if not done, chances of kids learning to live with themselves are pretty slim and the drive to keep changing and feeling unhappy doesn't go away with just medicating it.

Anyway, interested in actual statistics if anyone knows?