Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please change my mind : trans

307 replies

lurker33 · 29/05/2018 17:52

I've been lurking in the feminist boards for a while now, watching the discussions on trans. I am generally a live and let live kind of person, as long as it's not affecting anyone else adversely. Unfortunately I am coming to the conclusion that transgenderism is not a good thing; mainly because it appears to be reinforcing gender stereotypes. Why can't we have boys that like traditionally girls things and girls that like traditionally boys things?

Recently I was at an event where there were people who were talking about their experiences in a technical, male dominated area. 5 speakers were billed, two of which were women. Oh, well done organisers of said event I thought, for providing a well balanced panel of speakers, including two women who I could hold up as role models to my 8 yo daughter who had attended with me.

On further reading it transpired that one of the women billed was actually a transwoman.

How can I hold up a transwoman as a role model for my daughter, especially one who has transitioned late in life? My daughter won't have the same opportunities that a boy growing up will have, won't have to put up with the casual sexism us women all have to deal with, and quite frankly my daughter has nothing at all in common with this speaker.

It made me quite angry, which surprised me, and it dawned on me that calling transwoman a woman is actually an insult to women. I'll get flamed for this I'm sure but I can see a similarity to blackface where it's insulting for a white person to pretend to be black as white people are opressors of black people. It's insulting for a man to say he is a woman when men are opressors of women.

I do acknowledge the transwoman's struggle to be accepted for who they are, but that struggle has nothing in common with the struggle that women go though every day. Transwomen should be free to live their lives as they see fit but please don't think they have anything in common with women other than being part of the human race.

Transwomen are transwomen and are of the male sex, women are women and are of the female sex. There is nothing wrong with excluding people from a group if they don't have any attributes of that group. If you are insulted by scientific fact then perhaps you need to think again.

I am not sure what I am asking really. My female socialisation means that I feel slightly dirty for having come to this conclusion. If there are any transphilic people out there, I am happy to have my mind changed if you provide me with some coherent arguments as to why I shouldn't feel this way.

OP posts:
LangCleg · 30/05/2018 23:11

You're discriminating against them on the grounds of their "gender reassignment" - which is also a protected characteristic - and is allowed when it is a proportionate means to a legitimate aim. I'm quite sure that's right.

For once, I agree with Rat. The exemptions are permissions to discriminate against the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

YourVagesty · 30/05/2018 23:05

I noticed the other day that the women who pulled the Hampstead Men's Pond stunt (bravo) were rightly perceived by the men at the pool, and by the attendant police, as female. I can't quite imagine the police turning up to remove a group of transwomen on the basis of them being men. Imagine that.

One rule for one etc...

Anyway, I agree OP. I find it offensive and refer to it as 'womanface'.

RatRolyPoly · 30/05/2018 22:54

unless sex is important, than it is legally ok not to treat them as their desired sex.

In those cases it's not on the basis of their sex that you're discriminating against them, because their sex is female. You're discriminating against them on the grounds of their "gender reassignment" - which is also a protected characteristic - and is allowed when it is a proportionate means to a legitimate aim. I'm quite sure that's right.

RatRolyPoly · 30/05/2018 22:50

Have you read it Baroque?

"Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman
Subsection (1) is subject to provision made by this Act or any other enactment or any subordinate legislation."

The "provisions" (e.g. the exemptions) state in what way someone with a GRC can be treated differently to someone of their acquired sex.

They do not state how someone is "exempt" from being treated as their acquired sex and so should be treated as their former sex. That is not what's in there.

So it's not "transwomen are women except when there's good reason, then they're men" - as per your interpretation. It's "transwomen are women except when there's good reason, then they're TRANSWOMEN".

Baroquehavoc · 30/05/2018 22:38

Does that make sense?

No, it doesn't.

I'm interpretating it as someone with a GRC can be treated as their desired sex, unless sex is important, than it is legally ok not to treat them as their desired sex.

RatRolyPoly · 30/05/2018 22:24

It changes their legal sex in all cases. The exemptions are times when they are exempt from being treated exactly as their new legal sex; e.g. in sport. A GRC-holding female is subject to conditions that a natal female is not. They are not, however treated as a natal male.

So they're not exemptions to them being considered their new sex and so being treated instead as their old one. They are exemptions to treating them exactly as their new sex. They must be treated exactly as their acquired sex except in those circumstances.

Does that make sense?

SupermatchGame · 30/05/2018 22:20

For the purposes of protecting an individual's privacy which is also legal.

A GRC can't really change a person's legal sex if they can be legally excluded from sex based services, can it?

Baroque it isn't about 'can't really change a person's legal sex'. It actually does change a person's legal sex.

Baroquehavoc · 30/05/2018 22:12

A GRC can't really change a person's legal sex if they can be legally excluded from sex based services, can it?

RatRolyPoly · 30/05/2018 21:59

The whole point of the GRA is that it changes a person's legal sex

A legal fiction is created with this certificate that they are the opposite sex

These two statements mean the same thing.

Ereshkigal · 30/05/2018 21:53

The whole point of the GRA is that it changes a person's legal sex.

It doesn't. A legal fiction is created with this certificate that they are the opposite sex for most purposes. Except in the case of the legal exemptions which exist.

thebewilderness · 30/05/2018 21:52

The whole point of the GRA is that it changes a person's legal sex.
For the purpose of same sex marriage, which is now legal.

SupermatchGame · 30/05/2018 21:47

The GRA as is is not a hugely problematic bit of legislation. It does have flaws though, the language around changing sex should be updated to protect the characteristic of transgender but remove the legal fudge of saying the person has changed sex.

The whole point of the GRA is that it changes a person's legal sex. What else would be the point of it? Gender has become meaningless - there are a hundred different genders. It is the EA that protects the characteristic of transgender regardless of GRA.

TerfsUp · 30/05/2018 21:02

@bewilderness, you could look at it from another perspective. The OP plays chess with creatures of the same level of intelligence, ie pigeons. Anything more intelligent than pigeons and the OP loses the game...

Italiangreyhound · 30/05/2018 20:57

@RatRolyPoly hope little one is well soon. Thanks

thebewilderness · 30/05/2018 20:56

It is like having a discussion with an Evangelical or a Flat Earther, or perhaps more accurately trying to have a discussion with Humpty Dumpty.

thebewilderness · 30/05/2018 20:50

There are smart pigeons with whom I enjoy a game of chess

Nothing quite like being referred to as sub human on the Feminist boards of MN. Your demeaning "jokes" at women's expens make my skin crawl.

R0wantrees · 30/05/2018 20:28

lurker33
You may find this interesting reading:
(extract)
"When I first started feeling concerned about the kinds of things a lot of trans people were saying, I looked forward to hearing arguments that would help to shape my ideas one way or another. Part of me wanted to be convinced by the trans activists and so rekindle the warmth and compassion I’d felt after hearing the likes of Rikki Arundel and Stephen Whittle and watching the My Transsexual Summer series (see My Peak Trans Story). While it’s been frustrating and disappointing to find that so many trans activists’ arguments are short on reason and overly emotional, at least they have helped me to clarify my own position...." continues
www.peaktrans.org/bad-arguments/

AssassinatedBeauty · 30/05/2018 17:46

@MillyTheKid but she's obviously completely wrong, so can you tell her (and anyone else lurking) why she's completely wrong?

MillyTheKid · 30/05/2018 17:44

This thread should have been titled 'I've clearly already made up my mind: trans'

Ereshkigal · 30/05/2018 17:34

There are smart pigeons with whom I enjoy a game of chess; those smart pigeons

Or perhaps they are the people and you're the pigeon? Pigeons probably have a limited perception of interspecies differences after all.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 30/05/2018 15:32

No problem rat Smile

RatRolyPoly · 30/05/2018 14:58

Awww, cheers folks :)

Bowlofbabelfish · 30/05/2018 14:45

Re small rat - hope they’re on the mend soon. It’s hard when you can’t be there Flowers

daimbars · 30/05/2018 14:33

Wishing DC a speedy recovery RatRolyPoly x

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 30/05/2018 14:28

Honestly sorry to hear that rat

Its poopy when we cant help when they are sick

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.

Swipe left for the next trending thread