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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please change my mind : trans

307 replies

lurker33 · 29/05/2018 17:52

I've been lurking in the feminist boards for a while now, watching the discussions on trans. I am generally a live and let live kind of person, as long as it's not affecting anyone else adversely. Unfortunately I am coming to the conclusion that transgenderism is not a good thing; mainly because it appears to be reinforcing gender stereotypes. Why can't we have boys that like traditionally girls things and girls that like traditionally boys things?

Recently I was at an event where there were people who were talking about their experiences in a technical, male dominated area. 5 speakers were billed, two of which were women. Oh, well done organisers of said event I thought, for providing a well balanced panel of speakers, including two women who I could hold up as role models to my 8 yo daughter who had attended with me.

On further reading it transpired that one of the women billed was actually a transwoman.

How can I hold up a transwoman as a role model for my daughter, especially one who has transitioned late in life? My daughter won't have the same opportunities that a boy growing up will have, won't have to put up with the casual sexism us women all have to deal with, and quite frankly my daughter has nothing at all in common with this speaker.

It made me quite angry, which surprised me, and it dawned on me that calling transwoman a woman is actually an insult to women. I'll get flamed for this I'm sure but I can see a similarity to blackface where it's insulting for a white person to pretend to be black as white people are opressors of black people. It's insulting for a man to say he is a woman when men are opressors of women.

I do acknowledge the transwoman's struggle to be accepted for who they are, but that struggle has nothing in common with the struggle that women go though every day. Transwomen should be free to live their lives as they see fit but please don't think they have anything in common with women other than being part of the human race.

Transwomen are transwomen and are of the male sex, women are women and are of the female sex. There is nothing wrong with excluding people from a group if they don't have any attributes of that group. If you are insulted by scientific fact then perhaps you need to think again.

I am not sure what I am asking really. My female socialisation means that I feel slightly dirty for having come to this conclusion. If there are any transphilic people out there, I am happy to have my mind changed if you provide me with some coherent arguments as to why I shouldn't feel this way.

OP posts:
RatRolyPoly · 29/05/2018 19:33

Oh look, people who don't agree with me don't think my arguments hold water, I'm shocked. I'm not so stupid as to not know I can generally string an argument together - I have the pieces of paper to prove it - so whilst I don't expect anybody to agree with me I think it's quite transparent to suggest I have never made sense. Laughably so in fact.

Anyway, I'm aggro on account of the baby being sick, so you lot can have your fun without me tonight. I was simply telling the OP she can advanced search me if her mind is any way still open. I agree with a pp though, it's highly unlikely that it is.

lurker33 · 29/05/2018 19:33

Hello ratrolypoly, I have seen some of your posts, and tbh you are one of the people that has me questioning my stance on this. Would you be able to humour me? I really am listening and learning.

OP posts:
mirandayardley · 29/05/2018 19:33

Coherent arguments in support of transgender ideology? I’d love to see this.

Also, it’s not bigotry to refuse to submit to someone’s faith. It’s our right.

MIdgebabe · 29/05/2018 19:33

Op sees how men being called women may make current bias against women worse and therefore is biggotted? Surely simply saying we have one woman and one transwoman ( no transmen) and three men is letting live and let live. Anything else is live and let's lie.
If we didn't have bias against women then it wouldn't matter, but we do so it does.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 29/05/2018 19:32

you know you've made a clever move

Well i would agree that in many debates about all sorts of things that people THINK theyve made a clever move...

TerfsUp · 29/05/2018 19:32

Poor FaithSeed. Can't keep h** arguments consistent.

TerfsUp · 29/05/2018 19:31

TerfsUp how would I know if you'd even recognise one if you saw one? ON the internet no-one knows you're a potato.

How dare you mis-species me, you giraffe-phobe.

Ereshkigal · 29/05/2018 19:31

And anyway FaithSeed thinks transwomen are men. She said so on the manfriday thread

Indeed Grinquite illuminating.

nauticant · 29/05/2018 19:30

How can someone have a ‘cross sex gender identity’ if their gender identity determines their sex?

Because it's a missing piece of the ideological jigsaw and is necessary. Trans allies are aware that at some point the general public is going to go "hang on, there's only a handful of people with gender dysphoria, so what are these 0.3-1% of the population supposed to represent?" At that point, there's going to be a need for a new condition, a dysphoria-lite. Something that will be "real" but effectively impossible to define or diagnose.

RatRolyPoly · 29/05/2018 19:30

TerfsUp how would I know if you'd even recognise one if you saw one? ON the internet no-one knows you're a potato.

spontaneousgiventime · 29/05/2018 19:30

If Rat made any coherent arguments then I must have missed them. All their posts appeared to be rants.

Offred · 29/05/2018 19:29

I don’t think you can claim you are more coherent and objective AND read the OP as saying she ‘begrudged’ a trans woman a place on a panel.

That’s confirmation bias in operation right there!

Lemonjello · 29/05/2018 19:29

Absolutely agree. You can call me a TERF bigot until you're blue in the face, Faith, I don't care.

Totally agree with this. At first it used to throw me and make me doubt myself, and so I read loads from a trans point of view to see if I could bring myself round to that position.

I couldn’t.

Being called a bigot has absolutely no affect on me now.

And anyway @FaithSeed thinks transwomen are men. She said so on the manfriday thread. Grin

lurker33 · 29/05/2018 19:28

Hi Supermatchgame. I am sorry for keeping on asking about blackface but you could say that a transwomen is a parody of a woman, in the ironic sense, with their male body frames, large hands etc, and if they've had bottom surgery their neo 'vaginas'. I'm sure they don't mean to be a parody, and I'm not trying to be mean, but why aren't they a parody?

OP posts:
ferntwist · 29/05/2018 19:28

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Ereshkigal · 29/05/2018 19:28

If you think that a handful of male people have some critical characteristics in common with the 3.7 billion females of the world then you'd think you'd be able to articulate this.

This this this.

Bowlofbabelfish · 29/05/2018 19:27

Hi OP, I've presented a fuck-ton of coherent arguments.

Fuckton yes.
Coherent... no.

Ereshkigal · 29/05/2018 19:26

But frankly it's like playing chess with pigeons; you know you've made a clever move then they kick away the pieces and shit on the board.

lol @ the projection Grin

TerfsUp · 29/05/2018 19:25

I've presented a fuck-ton of coherent arguments

I have yet to see one coherent - let alone convincing - argument from you, @RatRolyPoly.

BarrackerBarmer · 29/05/2018 19:24

Gender identity is very well established as a concept. Some people develop a cross sex gender identity.

Not in the slightest.

Not one advocate for gender identity has managed to explain what they mean by gender, how it differs from sex, why they insist upon using terminology that relates to sex whilst insisting they mean gender, and what characteristics this common group apparently possesses, such that they exist as a discrete group which differs from males.

Gender MEANS group.
If you think that a handful of male people have some critical characteristics in common with the 3.7 billion females of the world then you'd think you'd be able to articulate this.

I am a human of the biological class that produce ova, not sperm.
That fact then correlates with a host of other circumstances that impact my life.

I have that in common with half the population.

'Transmen' have this in common with me.
'Transwomen' do not.

HotRocker · 29/05/2018 19:23

Faithseed, that is an opinion, not an argument.

RatRolyPoly · 29/05/2018 19:21

Hi OP, I've presented a fuck-ton of coherent arguments. Advanced search me if you if you're really interested. But frankly it's like playing chess with pigeons; you know you've made a clever move then they kick away the pieces and shit on the board. It's rarely a rewarding game to play.

You did not come to the right place if you wanted you mind changed.

The thing is if you really wanted to be open to transgenderism in a "live and let live " way you could do that. You approach the argument not knowing what practical steps you'll end up supporting or disagreeing with (self-ID, mixed sex toilets, whatever) in the end, but knowing that wherever you end up you won't begrudge a transwoman sitting on a panel who is simply living their life and not encroaching on yours at all, except for the fact that some of us are happy to call that person a woman.

You know what it's called when you approach an argument knowing your lines in the sand for how you will come out of it? It's called having principles. I advise you before you go any further to have a long hard think about yours.

Ereshkigal · 29/05/2018 19:20

My argument, in case you are struggling, is that the OP has no intention of having her mind changed, as evidenced by where she chose to post.

Go on, lay out your rational cogent killer argument. You know you want to.

And Feminist Chat isn't good enough for a question about the intersection between trans rights and women's rights?

Bowlofbabelfish · 29/05/2018 19:18

No respect for bigots, no.

A bigot is ‘a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.’

I’m asking you to explain and debate your opinions. You’re telling me to shut up.

Who is bigoted?

Ereshkigal · 29/05/2018 19:17

I would say exactly the same about an individual with AGP. Except there’s an added sexual dimension which makes it even more offensive.

Absolutely agree. You can call me a TERF bigot until you're blue in the face, Faith, I don't care.

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