We need to talk about Labour

Times link

Times article about the split between Unite and Momentum when it comes to self-ID.

But not, 'what is best'

Indeed. I don't even know if the primary motive is vote triangulation eithr, if I'm honest. I'd take any bet that "beating" the opposing faction comes first in the minds of most Labour politicians.

There was an article about the internal battle between the unions and Momentum which mentioned the self ID to AWS issue, can anyone remember which paper?

I think it was mentioned in The Times a few weeks ago - I might even have posted a sharetoken link but darned if I can remember the details now.

Anyone see Dawn Butler on the red carpet at the GLAAD awards in LA?

According to Guido Fawkes link, Butler has declared the purpose of the visit as a “Women and Equalities LGBT fact finding visit“.

9 day trip. Cost £14K apparently. And paid for by Anthony Watson, the guy who bankrolled Owen Jones' attempt to oust Corbyn.

"So it wouldn't surprise me to find they are saying as little as possible until they calculate which is best"

Agree Lang. But not, 'what is best' but rather they want to be on the side of public opinion after the storm has settled. They know that there is a risk to women but won't say it now for fear of being branded 'TERF'. So we are being thrown to the wolves in the meantime.

And I think Jess Phillips is at this game too. Shower of cowardly bastards.

This is what I was referring to. Lang-. Creasy and Butler are responsible for their own decisions and their own mistakes.

I know and I agree with you that they are. But, that said, I also agree that within Labour, there are constant machinations between factions.

Vis a vis self-ID, Corbyn and McDonnell are aware that both the activists for their faction and the MPs in their most inimical faction support self-ID. I think they are probably also aware that awareness is increasing and public opinion may well be starting to turn against it. So it wouldn't surprise me to find they are saying as little as possible until they calculate which is best - support self-ID to keep their activists on side, or walk back on support in order to deal a blow against an inimical faction.

I have a special contempt for Creasy because she completely blanked a woman who actually lives in a refuge.

Corbyn has completely positioned himself to blame Stella Creasy and Dawn Butler for when self-ID goes south with the voters.

He'll say that all the senior women in the party were all for it, and since he is such a big supporter of women's rights, he trusted their judgement.

This - it smacks of a classic glass cliff setup orchestrated by men in the background to isolate them from any fallout - as undoubtably there will be. Glass Cliff is when women are put in leadership positions of failing ships - like taking the helm of the Titanic

This is what I was referring to. Lang-. Creasy and Butler are responsible for their own decisions and their own mistakes.

I have a special contempt for Creasy after she dismissed the reports of a girl being told off for objecting to a male student "but I'm a girl" wanking in the female changing room.

Peer on peer assault - made my blood boil.

I have a special contempt for Creasy after she dismissed the reports of a girl being told off for objecting to a male student "but I'm a girl" wanking in the female changing room.

(I suppose it's only us long-suffering ex-members who have this painfully nerdish interest in which way the fiendishly complicated Venn diagram of vicious Labour factionalism will evolve!)

I know more left wing people who are against this than right wing. It's weird, it's as if when you're left of centre and you get it, you REALLY get it. When you're right of centre and you get it, the feeling is more 'God that's ridiculous' and moving on, without taking it seriously.

This poor little them being hung out to dry theory is infantilising- they are big girls- they chose to get into politics.

I didn't get the impression anyone was meaning it like that, Lass.

The thing is, Labour does seem to be speaking with a unified voice on this at the moment - which, given the viciousness of their factionalism, is unusual. Even those we can guess to be gender critical, such as Jess Phillips, are not saying a thing. But it is interesting that the right-of-the-party/"Blairite" faction - not just women like Creasy but also the men, such as Wes Streeting - is the one doing the most doubling down and taking the most hardline pro-self-ID stance, along with the pro-Corbyn activists like OJ.

The old hard left faction - Corbyn, McDonnell - might well be misogynistic but it's not postmodernist, so it will be interesting to see which way it breaks, should it become obvious that self-ID is a vote loser. And what will the pro-Corbyn activists do if they decide against it? Support the postmodernist Blairite faction? Or do a volte face on the issue in order to continue to support Corbyn?

womanformallyknownaswoman

Creasy and Butler are responsible for their own decisions- stop infantilising them.

Unless your name is Google stop acting like you know everything

I think you should stop telling another woman not to express an opinion.

This poor little them being hung out to dry theory is infantilising- they are big girls- they chose to get into politics.

For the Tories, Justine Greeninh would do it. For Labour, I think Chuka coming out for women and LGB would do it.

Creasy and Butler are responsible for their own decisions- stop infantilising them.

Unless your name is Google stop acting like you know everything

I know Jess Phillips has admirers on here but I can't see her speaking out - she's still on her way up the greasy pole. I think it would need a Michael Heseltine or Geoffrey Howe type of figure - someone pretty senior, maybe with an axe to grind, who doesn't mind stirring up a bit of mischief.

I read in an article that Laura Pidcock is against self id but she is very much in the Corbyn fold and wouldn't be disloyal. I think maybe someone like Jess Phillips could speak up, although the reason may be to cause trouble for the leadership rather than out of concern for the issue itself

This - it smacks of a classic glass cliff setup orchestrated by men in the background to isolate them from any fallout - as undoubtably there will be. Glass Cliff is when women are put in leadership positions of failing ships - like taking the helm of the Titanic.

No. Dawn Butler is one of the most useless politicians I have come across in a long time.

I loathe Corbyn, have done so since day 1 and voted against him in both leadership elections but I think it is entirely fair that if the women appointed to senior positions decide this is the way to go it isn't for him to criticise.

Creasy and Butler are responsible for their own decisions- stop infantilising them.

So far as affecting election chances , there are plenty of reasons not to vote Labour with Corbyn in charge; self ID doesn't even feature in my list.

If anything is going to stop self id it is the unions. Most of the big unions are divided and internally discussing this issue. If you are a member of a union speak to your officials about your concerns. I did this (had concerns about becoming publicly GC and being targeted by TRA's) turns out they knew very little about it (some believed the general pro trans equality line) I sent them a load of info and I believe they agree with me now. If unions vote this down at conference it will be dead in the water.

I think it would need one of the old guard to set off the dominos - the likes of Stella Creasy are still building their careers and won't rock the boat. I'm probably out of touch as I've not been a member for years but I keep coming back to Harriet Harman. I don't believe for a minute she's swallowed this nonsense and at 67, she might not be too worried about deselection threats. She'll be thinking about her 'legacy' but that could go either way.

Corbyn has completely positioned himself to blame Stella Creasy and Dawn Butler for when self-ID goes south with the voters.

This - it smacks of a classic glass cliff setup orchestrated by men in the background to isolate them from any fallout - as undoubtably there will be. Glass Cliff is when women are put in leadership positions of failing ships - like taking the helm of the Titanic.

It's a disaster waiting to happen at the next election and all bets are on the Millennials- until George Soros throws a 2nd Brexit referendum spammer in the works - did I just hear a clang?