Turns out Hampstead swimming ponds are single SEX after all ...

Wrong link I think?

Link to Sweary's LBC interview about Hampstead Pool

from thread where she's shared it and commented:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3266050-ManFriday-article-in-the-Daily-Mail

I'm so heartened to see such support from the DM comment section!! Fantastic stuff!

It's a very welcome shift,

at pains to stress the ‘women’ angle rather than their usual focus on ‘feminists’

I noticed the same in The Sun article below. I think this matters as up until now the narrative has been framed as feminists/some feminsts/so called feminists/radical feminists/TERFs vs people who are transgender.

www.thesun.co.uk/news/6368126/labours-womens-officer-david-lewis/

That IS a good DM article! It’s well written, covers the concerns and is at pains to stress the ‘women’ angle rather than their usual focus on ‘feminists’

My goodness, well done the DM! This is exactly what’s needed - rational debate in the wider read national press.

"But instead of saying 'hey we don't conform to stereotypes and we defend our right not to conform' they say 'hey I do conform to stereotypes because I'm the opposite sex'."

same with non-binary. They are saying "men = A" and "women = B", I am neither A nor B so I am not a man nor a woman. All the while they fail to see that they could just burst gender stereotypes, by pretending to be "outside" of them, they actually just reinforce them.

DH commented on the new article's headline, which he said spelled things out surprisingly clearly and at some length. I said it was probably deliberate because so many people had just skimmed the headline of the last one & then posted comments showing they'd completely missed the point.

Really good follow-up article in the DM today (and I don't often praise them for their journalism), but I think it's very even-handed and includes the stuff that wasn't said in their initial piece:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5796701/Hampstead-ponds-row-continues-transgender-demands-going-far.html

R0wan - absolutely perfect encapsulation of the shared space issue.

Nic Williams (Fairplay4Women)
twitter.com/AskNic/status/1001784404929384448

I believe the majority of people have a shared expectation of what a single-sex space or service is.

If this definition is to be changed then all stakeholders in society should be aware of this and able to consider it and contribute.

This can't be restricted to people from certain age group/ identity / educational experience / user of certain social media sites/ members of political groups etc.

To do so is to disenfranchise others.

Those concerns aren't even just about safety, for me. My feelings of simply being uncomfortable and embarrassed around people of the male sex in some situations are just as valid as their feelings. Surely?

Yes. They are. Of course they are and anyone who can't see this is a misogynist or has internalised it.

Well yes people who have extreme plastic surgery are no different in my eyes but the tone when reported is generally unsympathetic. They are vain, obsessing over themselves too much, etc.

They are often reported on just to mock them whereas in fact I can't see the difference. We should be kind to them as well. But neither group deserve special treatment in my opinion. It's not like a crippling disability, just not liking the way you look.

It's like a form of body dysmorphia that is condoned and legitimised...in truth I suppose you could argue that women who have plastic surgery and enhance/change their bodies, in some cases may also have a form of body dysmorphia that is encouraged - but they're not classified as a minority group who demand special status.

Anyone with diagnosed body dysmorphia is given therapy to learn to accept their bodies - not told yes, cut off the bits you don't like and become someone else.

What the hell happened? How did it come to this?

Being gender non conforming is always hard. Transphobia is rebranding of the dislike of people who don't conform to gender stereotypes. It's been coopted by transactivists. But instead of saying 'hey we don't conform to stereotypes and we defend our right not to conform' they say 'hey I do conform to stereotypes because I'm the opposite sex'.

@JoanSummers: so many people really don't see misogyny.

YY, absolutely agree. They don't experience it, therefore they don't feel it exists or effects them. Same with racism IME.

I mean, I'm sure being trans is hard and most people probably experience ridicule or downright persecution at times, but they are not the only people in the world to feel (or actually have!) vulnerabilities. TRAs don't seem capable of extending any empathy to others around what I think are valid concerns around self-id.

Those concerns aren't even just about safety, for me. My feelings of simply being uncomfortable and embarrassed around people of the male sex in some situations are just as valid as their feelings. Surely? But talking about it makes me a bigot?!

Yes. I was thinking about this on the way to work this morning.

Paedophiles presumably feel happier when allowed to abuse children.
Self harmers feel happier when they are cutting themselves.
Anorexics feel happier when starving themselves to death.

But we don't think these are good things or encourage them.

So why promote body modifications like this? We should be counselling surely to come to accept the healthy nature given body.

I heard the interview on LBC and I thought their guy did quite a good job of things in such a short piece (the man speaking directly to Hannah and the transman whose name I didn't catch, not Nick Ferrari. He's rubbish)

I find it so frustrating when transpeople say that they find anything other than unquestioning affirmation of their feelings to be upsetting, and that their feelings are paramount. So, the transman cried at Genderquake and this is a valid reason to close down any debate, to protect them from...er...crying again, but the notion that women may feel uncomfortable or afraid of males in their spaces is just silly and can be dismissed without discussion. The person actually laughed.

All the stuff about feelings and making them cry - this is what these men think that real ladies do, in their eyes ladies always get our own way because we cry and make people feel sorry for us. They are angry about that, they see our tears as a privilege we bring out whenever we want something. And so when they say they are hurting and crying they are trying to leverage that privilege as well as get the kick of being "in role" in a way they see as meaningful and true.

We never actually see the tears, we just hear about them. When they say they are hurt they always come across more like they are angry.

Of course when faced with real women who are making an argument and not relying on tears, they dismiss us as bitches. Women who don't cry are not women at all. We need slapping until we learn to cry, then they can pretend to empathise with us and tell us how we need not cry if we just do what we are supposed to, which is let them do what they want.

If women did actually cry and claim hurt at the way these men are steamrolling us they'd dismiss us in a heartbeat as just silly women doing what silly women do.

They are misogynists, the only reason so many people empathise with their bullshit, instead of seeing it for what it is, is that so many people really don't see misogyny.

Sweary also got in a commemt about transwomen who still have their penises not being appropriate in women’s facilities. I really think most people still think that all transwomen are post-op transsexuals.

Well done Sweary. Yes, they do.

Yes the bits about not changing anything, wearing a bikini but still self identifying as a man because you don't have to change anything, and 'trans women' still having penises will have caused some heads to pop I think.

Does anyone have a link to the radio interview?

Very good Interview. !! The transperson had nothing to say besides ""feelz" and transwomen are women.