Germaine Greer on rape - controversial

And yes I agree that distress re sentencing was a mistake but it’s what we have.

I agree with her.

For some of us its just an unwanted person's appendage in our vagina.
Its not permanent. We get over it, no damage done.

Misogynistic rhetoric wants rape to be worse than it often is.

I don’t like the bringing in of victim’s experience to determine whether a crime is really bad or not.

Victim experience may determine whether a report is made but determining the level of criminality? I think that simply serves to completely undermine the conceptualisation of rape as a crime in the first place.

There is no obligation to make a report.

We don’t make value judgements based on victim’s feelings re level of criminality for other crimes. The point of something being a crime is that it is considered harmful to society. The prosecution of a crime is an examination of evidence re the accused’s guilt.

Victim’s experiences have relevance re sentencing and for personal development of the victim only. If we allow the victim’s experience to determine the level of criminality I strongly believe that simply will lead to rape not being seen as a public harm and instead as exclusively a civil harm...

Which as I understand it is pretty close to what Greer was arguing for.

I disagree with that TBH.

There are huge problems in how we think about rape, how we talk about rape, how we prosecute rape, how we respond to people who have been raped...

I simply do not agree that this undermines the principle that rape is a crime (a public harm).

She’s making her point abrasively, but she’s trying to make people see sex as ultimately not very important.

I am more peturbed that she’s dismissive about the violence she underwent during the rape.

Completely agree with offreds last post

How you deal with anything, grief, trauma etc shoukd be completely up to you

But a crime should be treated as such, without degrees of distress

(Plus taking distress into account when sentencing just isnt fair...)

"They took away my dignity, my light... Well, hang on a minute, it was a fuck, how could it do all that?"

Seems just a little callous.

Lots of good points being made here. Agree about anger rather than shame.

I agree with her. I feel society makes out rape victims should be traumatised and reclusive for life. Thats the second act of rape. Secluding its victims and we should encourage them to shake off any stigma.

Thats not saying victims of rape should act the same way. Some of course will take longer to come to terms with it. But no one should be defined by it.

I don't think all rape is equally criminal.

Obviously all rape has the same central crime of sex without consent, but I think many factors of the individual crime can then indicate significantly different levels within the criminal act.

I know this is not acceptable view on these boards, but I think it's a better way for women to view rape for the reasons GG is discussing.

I think that’s an excellent point, offred

She's doing a talk about rape this week at the Hay on Wye festival which I'll be going to. It'll be interesting to see what she says without someone editing it.
I don't always agree with her but she's always thought provoking.
If anyone is in the area and interested, I think there are still a few tickets left.
www.hayfestival.com/p-13944-germaine-greer.aspx

I think there needs to be separation of rape as a crime and rape as an experience TBH.

As a crime every rape should be treated as equally criminal, which is why I was pissed a Ken Clarke who was justice secretary making statements re hierarchy.

Rape as an experience is both a shared and an individual experience.

I think she makes an interesting point.

I think we should question some of the narratives around rape, from all angles.

I've never gone along with the all rape is equally abhorrent and traumatic; the level of fear, coersion, violent intent, sense of betrayal etc etc, all make each case unique and the individuals response will therefore be unique.

All cases might be rape but not all rape is the same.

I agree with whoever above said anger is often a better response.

I was raped.
But I wasn't, and I'm not, traumatised at all. I do just think ' you pathetic opportunistic little prick' and I know if he is, there are lots of others too, and that makes me angry.

The problem is an age old one. As bewilderness says, the 3rd and 8th rules of misogyny in operation;

3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

Women must fit their experiences of rape into a framework created by men.

Having watched the whole thing now, I think it’s Greer being Greer TBH.

She’s often very forthright and sweeping and this is both her best and her worst quality!

I do know I spent years in denial after the first time I was raped actually saying things to other women like ‘I don’t know why anyone is bothered, it’s not a big deal’ and that this was active denial because I was homeless and extremely poor and vulnerable. It also meant that I was raped and abused and beaten almost constantly for 4 years until a rape ended in pregnancy and I ended up on the radar of women’s aid.

It’s not uncommon for sex workers to say ‘well I was abused so I might as well give it to them’ I do think there is a problem with dissociation from self with rape.

Not all women suffer from that dissociation. But it is certainly true that I was hit with the full weight once I was physically and psychologically safe. I believe that is how you distinguish between denial and integration which can look the same. If a woman is not physically or psychologically safe, especially if this lack of safety is drawn out over a period of years where more harm is done then I think ‘It’s not a big deal’ is actually an indicator of damage.

I agree with her too and it’s good to hear someone saying this in the public eye.

I remember when I was younger, seeing the phrase 'a fate worse than death' and being totally bemused. But of course the idea is that a Good Woman would kill herself if raped. And you still see that with the conviction rates for rape - 'Well, she didn't seem that upset'.

I think the trick is that rather than seeing rape as something to be upset about, we should see it as something to be angry about.

How fucking dare you, rather than I can never show my face again.

We don’t have to minimise our contempt for those who do it, but we can acknowledge we are not destroyed by it.

I think she’s wrong re equality. Certainly if you take a narrow lib fem style view re equality and only concern yourself with achieving equality (of opportunity, of earnings, of status etc) within waged work within capitalism then she’s absolutely correct.

However, that’s only one tiny and very specific aspect of equality. It’s extremely narrow thinking IMO to think the concept of equality needs to be thrown out because where people are centring the fight for it is wrong and narrow.

Some women on here would have me believe that I was raped, because I had sex with a bloke to shut him up and get rid of him.

I agree with GG.

I was raised in a Christian (ha) religion which published literature that stated you had the right to fight to the death - yours or his - to maintain your virginity or marital fidelity from a rapist.

Basically if you were raped and alive you hadn't fought hard enough abd had cheated.

Fucking appalling message. I agrEe with GG I think.

I think there is a lot of narrative that insists rape is the most awful and traumatic thing a woman can go through and while I wouldn’t take that away from another woman, it doesn’t apply to me.

I remember reading an article in the 90s about someone who’d done research with women who had been raped, with the cohort very mixed. The researcher noted that some of the more elderly women (at the time of their assault) were more sanguine about their experiences. They were viewing it through a lens where some of their other life experiences, particularly wartime events and more recent bereavements, had been more traumatic for them. From that point of view, Greer may have a point that your perpective on events is important, but its not appropriate for her to generalise that this should be the case for all women. It is a highly personal matter.

I was raped once in my teens and once in my 20s. I wasn’t particularly upset, except for the possibility of disease or pregnancy, and moved on. Many other incidents have defined me and my life, but not these ones. I am simply describing my own experience and cannot comment on that of others.