Matricentric feminism - the need for feminism to recognise the experience of mothers

Not compulsory obviously! But the option to work part time without it impacting negatively on your career. For all people not just parents!

I absolutely agree that the state ought to be at the service of the family. The state has broken family and community bonds down entirely and grabbed power by (in theory) picking up the pieces. Actually, it has taken control of the pieces.

I agree with that Chester but I think part time work for both parents is a great solution

Power does not just lie with money: it lies with executive function (agency and decision-making ability) over others.

"I work hard to maintain equality and check my own behaviours but that still means I am the one with all the power."

...because in our society, Power lies with Money, which is gained through full-on, full-time work, which is often not actually the first choice of mothers with young children.

The family unit is the basis, and future, of human society. Seen within this framework, motherhood is the most powerful role around, because without it, the future doesn't exist.

I believe that the state, and working life, should be at the service of the family, not the other way around, as is currently distinctly the case in the West.

Yes I agree it does need spelling out to Dads what their responsibilities are, whether sah or not. As others have said HVs could do a lot here. I made it clear to my dh it was part of the deal that he did the housework as well. Later I came to realise that a fair division of chores includes the one who is working oth doing some housework as well. Otherwise at least in our case it wasn't equal.

Interesting thread and very important. I think as a sahm I find it hard when the argument is anyone can be a mother. Well yes, they can, but it completely undermines the love bit doesn’t it? If anyone else had required you to carry them whilst sucking the life out of you, being ripped in two whilst they entered the world and then made sure you never slept again, looking after them would be impossible if you didn’t love them! I wouldn’t do it for anyone else

I don't know. As I said (way) upthread, I was heartbroken to go back to work when my son was 6 months old, but DH was in a job with a fixed term contract, due to expire in a couple of months and no sign of renewal. So, DS went into nursery and, no, I don't think that was best for him. He never slept during the day (at 6 months old!). DH's contract did expire after a couple of months, so then he became a SAHD, and I was the 'breadwinner'. I was happier with that situation than with DS being in nursery, but as PP said, I sometimes found myself getting a bit 1950s on DH. I expected him to do all the 'housewife' stuff, cleaning, organising, etc, because I had during a period as a SAHM (previous marriage) But he didn't pick those up. I resented that, and being solely financially responsible for the family. So, not all roses round the door ....
We're both self-employed now and much more flexible. Guess who still does 90% of the wifework?

Chester you make some valid points but some fathers can be fantastic primary care givers and to focus on the importance of mothers being at home with the main contrast being nursery as opposed to both working part time or the father staying home perpetuates inequality. I do agree that in low wage situations, however, there should not be incentives to put children into childcare before school age. Again financial support for both parents to work part time or one to stay home would be better.

It is my experience that the division of parenting responsibility between Mother and Father very much affects power, independence and freedom. I have become the one with the economic power, the one others look to and listen to, the one with social status. I have leap frogged others in my career as I have been able to work longer hours, flex my life to achieve career goals etc etc. I have missed out on time with my children, at least in the early stages. A big part of me did long for them but as my dh became better at what he did that eased a lot as I could see the quality of life they were enjoying with him. Also because he did all the house work I can give all my free time to them. I recognise economic advantage here obviously. Often I see things on this site presented as traits of masculinity which I have acquired directly as a result of the division of home responsibilities. If my dh could have had shared parental leave and each worked part time whilst not being held back in our careers we would, I believe, have been a lot more equal in our relationship. I work hard to maintain equality and check my own behaviours but that still means I am the one with all the power.

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/1672413--to-think-that-Mothers-and-Fathers-are-Equal-but-Different

"I posted this at the end of another thread with a slightly different focus, so will re-post here: I was struck by the assumption that 'equality' means 'sameness'; that being a mother is no different from being a father; that 'parenting' is the same whether being done by the mother or father.

I disagree with all these assumptions. That does not mean that I don't think that mothers and fathers have equally important roles to play in the upbringing of their children: it does mean that I think those roles are different, because men and women are different. And I think that a child's mother is uniquely suited to being the primary carer of her child. This website is not called "Person-Net" for a reason.

I know I'm going to be accused of being gender-deterministic, or of vilifying mothers who return to work and leave their babies with professional childminders. This is not my intention at all; however, I do believe that it minimises the importance of the maternal bond - and therefore of women - to state that if a baby's physical needs are being met by a competent, or even caring, child-care professional, then this is qualitatively the same as that baby being cared for by its mother, or father, or other personally, consistently 'attached' adult.

I think a whole generation of women have believed the lie that they are not equal to men unless they are financially independent; that they have little value, or right to respect, unless they are contributing to the economy directly via the workforce.

In order to be happy with their new role as "same-as-men",women have then had to be convinced that their babies are just as well-off in child-care as with them. Does anyone on here really believe that? That a child-care professional is as good as a mother? And if they don't believe that, how has it happened that women end up in a position where they are forced to sacrifice their child's welfare for the sake of their own financial independence?

That was a rhetorical question; I really don't believe that a mother would deliberately make a choice she thought was detrimental to her child if there were other alternatives available; but the whole set-up of society now makes it very difficult to support a family, let alone own a home, unless both parents are working. And if both parents work, their children are in child-care. And in order to justify that 'necessity', women need to convince themselves that qualitatively their children are no worse off than if they were at home, being cared for by a parent (preferably, according to a few thousand years of evolution, their mother). And by accepting that bit of double-think, they devalue and do themselves out of the most important job any human being has ever had to do in the history of the world: raising the next generation of humankind. And our government is perpetuating that double-think by constantly pressuring women to return to work so that they can also provide a job for whoever will be looking after their children.

Apologies for the rant. Apologies to all whose I've just offended. Not my intention."

"Motherhood is when inequality kicks in. "

I think I'd re-phrase that as "Motherhood is when difference really kicks in". I absolutely believe that women's lived experience of mothering is completely different from men's experience of fathering, with correspondingly different effects (or lack of) on their lives.

We can argue about the precise degree to which these differences are due to biology/social constructs, but surely we will actually never know. How could we, ethically, do that investigation?

"But in social terms why should 'mothering' be different from 'fathering'?"

I started a thread a couple of years ago on this precise topic a couple of years ago - there were some very interesting responses, as here.

I've really enjoyed reading this thread. Thanks to the op and to Offred and slightlyglittermaned whose contributions I've particularly appreciated. My dh is a sahd who carries the full weight of responsibility for family and for the home and has done for a very long time. He uses 'motherease,' speaks with a more high pitched voice to our toddler, carries the mental load for the family etc etc. For spells of our marriage when work was particularly high pressured I behaved like a 1950s husband. Often when I've read threads on here I have felt guilty and been challenged over how I treat him. I have repeatedly walked past stuff on the stairs, been distant and unavailable to our dc, not known how to operate the washing machine etc. I have ignored how he has facilitated my career by caring for our dc and taken all the credit. Now we have more of a balance in our relationship thankfully. But I have come to think that parenting roles are massively important for liberation of both sexes. Now I'm in a key leadership position i can concentrate on making the workplace somewhere where people with family responsibilities can succeed and flourish.

7th rule of misogyny: Women should always be grateful to men for everything.

This is why the response to our complaints are usually met with anger and veiled threats. Or even a bit of DARVO.

Really? Did you tell him to fuck off and die? Because I would have done.

Yet No, I hadn't discovered mumsnet fwr back then to help me out of the fog of female socialisation. Mumsnet helped me through that time though. Agree about not being passive but this is why feminism is important (and to get back to the op why motherhood needs consideration as part of feminism) - to help women in vulnerable situations who can't help themselves.

"Personally IME grandfathers have been better than when they were fathers but also they retain an individualist approach still. They approach the role as ‘my time with my grandchildren"

My point was to illustrate that men can miraculously acquire these skills when they want to (just as many women have to) and there's nothing innate about looking after and entertaining an infant but I do agree with what you are saying. Like with the SAHDs I know of, they choose to do the bits that what they want to do.

Since my dad went deaf and needed hearing aids he has been literally switching my mum off when she says something he doesn’t like.

And NO it's not women's responsibility to complain etc. - but sitting passively is not going to work either.

Dh is a nice man, a good man, yet thought nothing of complaining to me post difficult csection, bloody, in pain, raw nipples, leaking, no sleep, couldn't sit up, that no one was asking how he felt. Mutiple times

Really? Did you tell him to fuck off and die? Because I would have done.

Many women then get funnelled onto anti depressants and told they have PND.

I think this is scandalous because it is clear that real actual PND is very different to ‘struggling with something hard and needing help’ and ADs in this situation just fob women off, medicate them into silence and transfer the problem from society/partner to the woman.

They also get socialised into the same thing that keeps women struggling in silence re what motherhood is meant to be like.

And they have their own anxieties re their own performance of ‘father’.

The personal is also political.

Luckily I have a partner who supports me 120%.

This is often not conscious choice from men. Socialisation for men says women are complainers and teaches them how to avoid listening/doing anything because making concessions to a woman is emasculating.

I think the complaining thing is founded on; 1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.

I know that wasn’t the point re urging women to complain BTW.

BUT, how many women recognise the circular discussion with menfolk;

Woman; [complaint]
Man; [placate make no change]

Woman; [complaint]
Man; [placate make no change]

Woman; [more assertively complain]
Man; [complain woman is mean, does not respond re complaint]

Woman; ‘Please can you listen to me?!’
Man; ‘Why didn’t you say anything earlier?!’

This is usually after woman has been struggling in silence for a while trying to work out if there is something wrong with her because she’s finding performing the mother role very difficult.

I do think his feelings are important but at that time I should not have been made responsible for giving a shit honestly. I had his tiny daughter that had been surgically removed from my uterus and I was trying to keep both of us alive. That was enough.