Matricentric feminism - the need for feminism to recognise the experience of mothers

The sing song voice, the little rituals around telling them he loves them, the physical affection, the constant verbal input, the creative planning of activities, the thought put into the lunch box, the listening, the coming down to their level, the discipline, the hair plaiting, the endless loads of washing, the sitting with them while they do their homework, the reading with voices....you get the idea

I agree 12 months re female biology, three years is primarily important re child development.

I don’t think it is actually possible to talk about mothers without talking about fathers TBH. Unless you believe raising children does not concern fathers at all in any way.

As regards biology, this is particularly relevant and important during the first 12 months which is why Mothers must retain a right to have the full maternity leave themselves and it must be illegal for this to negatively impact their career progression. After 12 months biology becomes less and less relevant and socialised behaviours become, if anything, more important. I am not saying a Mother's role isn't crucial but I'm saying the same role can be performed in the same way by a man. I know because I see it every day.

"I don’t know. This thread was about mothers and feminism and seems to have turned into one about how fathers are just as good as mothers (and what actually does a mother do anyway?)." I think I contributed to moving the discussion to being around the Father as a main care giver but what I was trying to explain was the way in which the apportionment of home responsibilities creates inequality. My preference is definitely to create a society where both parents are able to pursue rewarding part time careers and where this is the expected norm. This is also something I personally work towards, influencing my own workplace and trying to give women who work part time a hand up. What we perceive to be a Mother's role can be carried out very effectively by a Father but in my personal experience that has required the Father to relinquish much of his male socialisation.

Yes, when the parents need care then ‘biological factors’ determine that providing that care is a female child’s job. Male children have the role of overseeing practicalities re the care if they like.

Most of the time ‘biological factors’ are determined to mean ‘children need mothers’ even when the child in question is 50 years old...

Mmmm unless the child is female and the parents need care, in which case the argument is that women 'care naturally' puke.

There is a massive difference between biological function and biological factors.

Many women feel that mothering is performing their ultimate biological function. Many women do not, men might feel that way too if the culture told them their role was that of parent.

Really? That is a very sweeping statement, for which I don't see how you can provide proof

Well, I could send you to some history books maybe? There you might find that ideas of child-raising have changed remarkably over the centuries and have differed even in the UK/Europe between social classes. Indeed, even the idea of what a child is has changed. And for cultural differences, you could check out some texts on cultural anthropology...

This is not a claim that there are no biological differences between men and women or that there are no biological factors involved in parenting.

Interestingly there are biological factors associated with fatherhood.

Most of the time ‘biological factors’ are determined to mean ‘children need mothers’ even when the child in question is 50 years old...

The idea that it is mothers that are inherently essential to healthy child development (outside particular biological functions such as pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding) and not the type of care is entirely unsubstantiated in science, defies logic and is sexist.

I’m not sure how you could read that conclusion into the discussion here but the main thrust is;

• children need to be well cared for and this should be considered to be fundamentally important to feminism when we consider motherhood.

• the burden of raising children, along with other kinds of care is widely unvalued and invisible. It falls almost exclusively on women

• this materially disadvantages women for many reasons and motherhood (and perceptions re women’s potential to be mothers) is a major way in which women are suffering oppression/discrimination/harm.

• at the same time as claiming biology as the reason for this burden falling disproportionately on women the same culture refuses to provide for many of the biological consequences women suffer re pregnancy and childbirth, preferring instead to treat them as ‘part of being a woman’ exposing that the culture is not actually bothered about female biology except when it involves impoverishing/controlling women.

• there is no biological reason why men cannot be parents

• the assumption that parenting ability is determined exclusively by biology harms all people but particularly women as it is used to control, impoverish and determine their value as humans.

• quality of parenting is better determined by skill sets and acceptance of responsibility than biology. Humans are good at learning skills they need but lack. Many women have to do this already re parenting.

• Biology is a factor which should not be ignored as biological differences result in the parents having different needs sometimes but biology is far less important than societal structure would have you believe and re parenting, what children need is a parent, in the vast majority of situations.

"And, in fact, what women do now in respect to children and babies is entirely historically and culturally located."

Really? That is a very sweeping statement, for which I don't see how you can provide proof.

I don't deny that history and culture have played their part in fashioning 'what women do in respect to children and babies', but that does not mean that there are not other factors at play - some of which we may not even be aware of.

I still think how many hours a day you are actually communicating with, physically contacting an infant is the important thing, not whether you are actually going to work or not.

I haven't said men don't love their children as much as women do, or that their love is less important than a mother's love.

I do believe that there are differences between men and women - which will always be a complex interwoven web of biology, culture, history and something I will call 'nature' (by which I mean that which is intrinsic to the Male vs Female experience of themselves and the world) - which last exists at a deep level of our psyche, inaccessible to scientific interrogation.

Another way of putting that would be to insist on retaining the concepts of Motherhood and Fatherhood, rather than settling for the insipid, impersonal concept of 'Parenting', a series of practical tasks that can be performed by any random person, regardless of their personal relationship/commitment to the child.

I'm not out to convince anyone, just to add a different voice to a very interesting thread on an important topic.

I do think it's problematic to talk of equality of outcome, for example in the workplace, when the physical differences between men and women (which are biological, and not anyone's 'fault'), must have a significant impact on said outcomes.

And why shouldn't pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding have an impact on women's working lives? How can they not? How can we, as champions of women, fight to diminish the impact of these things, without also diminishing their value and importance, to us personally as mothers, and to our children, and to society as a whole?

societal effects of having dc which predominantly effect mothers

But there is nothing essential or natural in this so this can be changed.

I don’t know. This thread was about mothers and feminism and seems to have turned into one about how fathers are just as good as mothers (and what actually does a mother do anyway?). I don’t disagree that fathers can’t do what mothers do aside from biology, but this obviously minimises the biological consequences of having dc and the societal effects of having dc which predominantly effect mothers.

I think that is confused thinking too. Everybody is arguing that the work should be valued because it is important work.

The arguments re mothers vs fathers are making the point that mothers and fathers are equally capable of performing all of this important and valuable work apart from exceptions where the work cannot be done by fathers e.g. pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding but that this does not mean there is no role for fathers to play re this work.

Who knows if fathers can do exactly what mothers do when we live in an unequal society? The world isn’t full of men having discussions about work, sah etc etc that women agonise over and suffer over. Whilst it’s a women’s/mothers predominantly issue it’s something we have to deal with in feminism. When we have proper equality then we can talk! I find the repeated devaluing of what mothers do in this thread the opposite of feminist - it plays into the idea that what a mother does is worthless and can literally be done by anybody with a pulse. Ideas that I feel have kept women subjugated for a very long time and continue to do so.

Many many men love their children without being a parent.

I’m not saying responsibility is enough. I’m saying that love without responsibility is not parenting and that there is no reason at all to believe that men are biologically incapable of taking on that responsibility or that the reason women do in the majority of cases is because responsibility taking is biologically programmed into women.

I mean really? Male biology means that innately men are attuned to their alarm so they can wake up for work or a flight, or their phone so they can wake up when they are on call but can’t wake up when a baby is crying and female biology means women do all that AND hear babies?

Love is neither here nor there re parenting anyway IMO. The main factor is accepting responsibility. Childcarers of any type accept the responsibility of in loco parentis, it is often only the woman who really accepts the responsibility of parent and I believe that is really the fundamental difference and it is down to how we culturally view motherhood and fatherhood.

*hasnt given birth to them

Yes I meant fathers vs mothers.

I think it is sexist to believe that men are not as capable as women of loving a child in the way they need or providing the necessary care.

Men don’t wake up to a crying baby in part because they believe it isn’t their job to, in part it is likely to be influenced by biology. People can for example choose when they go to sleep to wake up when they hear a certain sound such as an alarm clock.

State nurseries also have other inherent factors that inhibit the ability to provide what a child needs such as turnover of staff.

But we are not just talking about small babies are we. What we are talking about is motherhood across a woman’s lifetime even into a child’s old age if the mother lives that long.

If biology was so important that a child could not be raised without it’s mother then society would be fucked. Babies can even be breastfed by a woman who hasn’t given birth so even with breastfeeding it is female biology that trumps being the actual mother.

We know that fathers can learn to speak to babies, we know that fathers can wake up in the night, we know that fathers can do many things, we know children can be raised without a mother or a father or by a father on his own and therefore the influence of biology on parenting is likely to be small.

But who amongst us thinks that parenthood is merely a practical, physical function? Someone upthread mentioned LOVE; is it so unreasonable and unthinkable to suggest that men and women might love their offspring in different ways, and that the child might have more need (in terms of time exposure) of one kind of love than another, at different stages of their life

Wow. I never thought I'd say this, but if I were a man I'd be offended by that. Of course men can do what women do. And, in fact, what women do now in respect to children and babies is entirely historically and culturally located.There is no one 'womanly way' of raising babies at all!

"it’s ridiculous and sexist to claim that men are not capable of raising a child."
I haven't made that claim, offred.

"...the majority of the requirements of the role require skills. Since men are human beings, men are perfectly capable of performing the tasks associated with raising a child."

By that logic, we can have the state-run nurseries mentioned up-thread; they would be staffed by "human beings...perfectly capable of performing the tasks associated with raising a child."

If in fact you meant that fathers were as capable as mothers of performing most of the tasks associated with child-raising (with the obvious and crucial exception of breastfeeding), I would agree as far as purely practical, functional tasks are concerned (mostly; my husband can sleep through a baby crying; I can't - and not because I don't want to sometimes!)

But who amongst us thinks that parenthood is merely a practical, physical function? Someone upthread mentioned LOVE; is it so unreasonable and unthinkable to suggest that men and women might love their offspring in different ways, and that the child might have more need (in terms of time exposure) of one kind of love than another, at different stages of their life?

The fact that love cannot be empirically verified/analysed/legislated for does not mean that it is not a crucial part of the discussion.

Chester I think you have muddled thinking TBH.

Re parenting we only need to know what children need and whether men and women are capable of providing those things.

Unless we are talking about actually carrying the baby, birthing the baby or feeding the baby then it’s ridiculous and sexist to claim that men are not capable of raising a child.

These things re biology may be factors but it is the vanity of small differences and the majority of the requirements of the role require skills. Since men are human beings, men are perfectly capable of performing the tasks associated with raising a child.