Matricentric feminism - the need for feminism to recognise the experience of mothers

Haven't read the full thread but just wanted to thank @Offred for your post at 14:37. Encapsulates brilliantly so much of what I often muse about.

Derailing threads is what sealions and trolls practice over and over again

The discussion about MRA is a good one to have, it's just such a shame that it's derailed a thread that was supposed to be about matricentric feminism!

I've really enjoyed all of your posts though, Offred. I agree with all that you say.

MRAs advocating for more men's rights in a society where men's rights are already top of the agenda, and systemically centred and weaponised to subjugate women, is just what's needed to correct social injustice inequity and discrimination against women.

And coming on a feminist forum to advertise that is not invading boundaries? I agree to disagree.

Sorry what boundary are you referring to? If there is something in the terms of service of this site that precludes men signing up that I missed? I’m happy to bounce if that’s the case. Or is my mere existence here an affront to your boundaries?

Might I suggest you exercise your right of freedom of association? I’m more than happy to disengage from your posts as I have neither the power nor the inclination to force you into interacting with me in any way shape or form.

I’m certainly not about to violate any of your boundaries.

MRAs are antithetical to Feminism. They have no respect whatsoever for women's boundaries. Including coming to a Feminist forum to demand the attention of Feminists.

Yes, that is why I’m sure bewilderness. I think it’s obvious really and just requires a small leap from realising that MRA is populated with ‘male supremacists, rape apologists and a number of unsavoury characters’.

However, I do think this; ‘all of whom I’m prepared to argue with, call out and argue with in fair and open debate’ would be a good thing to happen inside MRA.

What I’m not sure at all about is whether it will be effective or whether anyone else is even doing it and what I’d say to you from a feminist perspective is that it’s not right to expect the women’s groups to sit at the table while the movement is like the above. The problem is the movement is like the above rather than that the women’s groups wouldnt sit at the table.

If the MRA movement sorts out it’s problems I think you would find women’s groups are willing to work together re issues where it is helpful...

Thank you thebewilderness for making my point for me.

Feminist organisation in the country point blank refused to engage if Fathers rights groups were invited to the consultation. I struggle to see how fatherhood is going to be advocated for robustly under such conditions.

Why won't those women meet with the abusive men who send them death threats every effing day? It is a great mystery that no one can solve.
I avoid MRAs as a matter of course, having been targeted by them in the past. I fully understand why women do not want to meet with their abusers, and why MRAs want the right to force women to meet with them.

I will actually completely agree with you I don’t agree with the shared care being the default. It should be what’s in the best interests of the children. I also genuinely worry that that isn’t what often plays out in the courts. I’ve seen fathers and mothers shafted by completely ridiculous decisions that often see children left in untenable and even dangerous situations.

MRA tend to think of equity for men as women doing more things for men you see... not saying that is what you were asking...

I do know that some feminists actually just hate men, which is not feminism IMO.

That might sound like a handy get out clause!!! Ha ha! But I think re MRA, it is majority extremists with an entitlement problem such that this becomes representative of MRA.

I don’t think that is the case with feminism, especially because the dominant version these days is the lib fem variety.

As ever it depends on very personal definitions of what is ‘equitable’

E.g. some people believe it is equitable for one group of people to be privileged because that group deserves the privilege.

Obviously feminists and feminism are not perfect and of course it can steer into unfair and unjustified beliefs about men.

But if you look at what has actually been achieved by MRA it is, at the extreme end a number of misogynistic mass killings and shared care law which is diabolical for children’s rights in practice, harms women and promotes a ‘men’s rights’ approach to shared parenting...

It’s that along with what you say about the main membership that I worry about.

Also, I can see a place for advocacy for men re men’s issues and experiences.

I do hope that MRA becomes more like what you are saying you want it to be. I do think the way of doing that is perhaps maintaining it as advocacy for men but with regard to class analysis re sex. Many of the problems for men IMO are actually caused by the same sexism that oppressed women, which is why feminism would alleviate them as a consequence.

I think both feminism and MRAs can tend towards seeking supremacy at their extremes. Years ago when the Canadian government was seeking to consult on reforms to the family law system, the largest
Feminist organisation in the country point blank refused to engage if Fathers rights groups were invited to the consultation. I struggle to see how fatherhood is going to be advocated for robustly under such conditions.

I’ll admit right now my side is blighted by male supremacists, rape apologists and a number of unsavoury characters, all of whom I’m prepared to argue with, call out and argue with in fair and open debate, but currently they are the only show in town re: promoting fatherhood. I again agree we don’t go about it in the right way and our arguments are often flawed, but that’s what I’m left with.

I’m a single father myself and once my dc is old enough I’ll be getting into advocating my position possibly full time, both within the men’s rights movement itself and in wider society.

I have found sometimes the feminist drive for equity entirely dissipates when I make a request for something equitable. Not from all feminists mind but often the majority of you.

*I would like to see feminism acknowledge that really, that actually beyond the women’s rights where motherhood is concerned, children’s rights and development are important and can’t be simply ignored when we look to improve the rights and experiences of mothers.

Unless we can deal with that then motherhood will remain a trap.*

Offred pretty much agree with all you write! YES!

I've really felt that the way things are with society and work hugely disadvantage a woman since I became a mother. But also, I know that DH sometimes resents the time I get to spend with the DC. I think a structure which allowed both of us to go part time and together care for DC would be equality (we earned the same pretty much when DC1 came along), but most workplaces won't countenance this and for us, there was no shared leave with DC1. Once you've given up work the first time, and the other person's progression and pay outstrips yours, it's really hard to financially change roles (unless you're super rich).

One thing I think often gets missed about breastfeeding too is that it is good for the mother's health - and reduces the risk of several very unsavoury diseases. I breastfeed because it's easy, cheap, good for baby but also good for me - in particular reducing the risk of some diseases I am particularly at risk of. This always, somehow, gets overlooked by healthcare professionals / the accommodations work must make for bf. As if what's good for the mother doesn't actually matter.

Women, of course have no concept of the lived experience of being a man.

Actually having lived experience isn’t really very relevant to analysing power structures though.

Feminism doesn’t try to represent men’s interests.

However, re this particular problem of uninvolved fathers and child development would be resolved much more satisfactorily for everyone by feminism that MRA.

The problem is that MRA is centred on seeking regaining of privilege.

Feminism is centred on gaining equality. With feminism men lose privilege but gain in areas where the maintaining of the privilege has a cost - like re DC.

One common piece of rhetoric that I see from feminists is how can men possibly comprehend the lived experience of women? This is something I can see the wisdom of, but that being true the reverse must also follow that a woman cannot comprehend the totality of a man’s lived experience. Therefore that being the case how can feminism possibly represent men’s interests?

I agree MRA is a new movement and we pratfall and make fools of ourselves more often than not BUT this will change as cooler heads prevail and present our case more robustly. I think we could learn a lot from feminism in that regard.

My hope is eventually feminism and MRA’s can actually become sister/brother movements. I concede there is a long way to go at my end.

I have a problem with this opening paragraph.
Over the last forty years, as feminist theory and women’s studies have grown and developed as a scholarly field, they have incorporated various and diverse theoretical models to represent the specific perspectives/concerns of particular groups of women; global feminism, queer feminism, third wave feminism and womanism. In contrast, I will argue that women’s studies has not likewise recognized or embraced a feminism developed from the specific needs/concerns of mothers, what I have termed matricentric feminism. The paper will consider possible reasons for the exclusion of matricentric feminism in feminist theory and why this school of feminism must be accorded the same legitimacy and autonomy as other feminist theoretical models in the discipline of women’s studies.

It seems an odd thing to address since there are almost no women's studies in academia any more. Still, I would like to hear more about the theoretical frame for pro porn and prostitution that is the basis for third wave or what is currently called liberal feminism. While I have heard of queer theory I had no idea that there was a theory of queer feminism. In fact I had thought that Feminists rejected queer theory.
They are calling gender studies women's studies.
Punching down in academia is particularly unsavory.

Women are also subject to stereotypes as girls, sexual harassment from preteens, expected to care for elderly relatives, to be quiet and unassuming and if not motherly/caring/quiet are condemned in a way that men would never be.
And of course they have medical conditions that are ignored that are to do with their biology. And the differential research into general medical conditions that means women are less well treated for the same condition. Infertility affects women more and not all pregnancies lead to children so not everyone who's affected by pregnancy or its complications is a mother.
I certainly noticed sexism more when I had children but it was partly the effect on them. It didn't start then.

MRA want to keep higher status for men AND have control over children without equal responsibility. That’s the purpose of being MRA rather than allying with feminism because that’s the material difference between them. One wants to end inequality, the other wants to increase men’s privileged status into the arena of the family (as it used to be).

If you don’t believe personally that’s the best outcome then I suggest you have perhaps been negatively affected by smear campaigns about what feminism is and that you’d be much better off allying with feminism than MRA. F4J absolutely IS representative of what MRA is re DC.

It would be infinitely better for MRAs to ally with feminism. It’s not necessary for MRA to even really exist re DC.

Although feminism is not directly concerned with fighting for men’s rights the actual result of feminism would be that men are no longer structurally assumed to be surplus to requirements re DC.

Unfortunately, the very act of framing these issues as ‘men’s rights’ means every single man involved in it is actively demonstrating the very same pathological entitlement that feminism is trying to erase.

I think men who choose MRA rather than allying with feminism are fighting for something different from the very start - perpetuation of inequality.

Aren’t going to be sitting down that should read.

It’s my hope to reform the discussion within the MRA movement beyond simple whining. As I appreciate that’s where a lot of it is at presently. I’d also accept Offred’s point that if men want to be involved with their children before relationship breakdown that will reflect better for us when things get to the courts.

However just as I accept wholeheartedly that there are many men who use their children as pawns to control the mother their are also plenty of women who work to alienate children from their fathers.

I would agree both Feminists and MRA’s are going to be sitting down any time soon to hash it out respectfully, but that also doesn’t mean we aren’t going to have to sooner or later.

Yes terf I meant the feminists who propose all babies go to big state nurseries for long hours virtually as soon as they are born. I shouldn’t have said all childcare as nannies, au pairs and childminders don’t really suffer from this problem to the same degree.

Yy

Yes, I kind of want to, just out of childishness, pop up on every issue not subject to #NAMALT saying #NAMALT.... suicide, diseases, accidents at work, life expectancy....