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Original poster

Lesbian gets banned from LGBTQ+ messaged board for trying to talk about the lesbophobia in trans activism

91 replies

LostLesbian380 · 26/05/2018 03:50

www.reddit.com/r/ainbow/comments/8m6o53/its_time_to_talk_about_terf/

In case they delete it, this is the body of the original post:

Hey LGBTQ+ friends,

I'm sure many of you have heard the term "TERF," and assume that it means "someone who hates trans people." That's what I thought until a couple of weeks ago, when I got called a TERF for being homosexual rather than homogenderal. I am a lesbian and the way my sexual orientation functions is toward female people only. Transgender women are valid, but they unfortunately have a mix of male and female sex characteristics, and for me, I am only sexually attracted to female sex characteristics. Growing up, I tried very hard to be bisexual; I didn't want to be gay, I wanted to have a husband and a normal life, and realizing that I physically could not experience attraction to male people was very difficult for me to accept. I finally came to terms with it- but unfortunately now, I am experiencing a lot of homophobia from the unlikeliest of places: within LGBTQ+ itself, specifically, the QT.

Which is why I want to have a conversation with y'all. I am a supporter of trans rights; I have signed up to volunteer in a name change clinic in law school, took a Transgender Studies class in undergrad, have many transgender friends, and overall support trans people having full civil rights. I also support trans people being treated with MUCH more dignity and respect than is standard in today's society. I want to be an ally to trans people, and I do still consider myself an ally to trans people in general- but what I have an issue with is the TRA (trans rights activism) movement, which seems to have gone off the rails. One of the TRA movement's primary tactics is using the term "TERF" to shut down intellectual discourse. Over the past several weeks, it has become clear to me that people who do consider trans women to be women are being called a TERF, at ever-increasing rates. These are just a few of the reasons I've seen female people get called a "TERF" by TRAs:

-Saying there are objective physical differences between trans women and biological women (which does not invalidate anyone's identity btw)

-Being a lesbian (exclusive homosexual attraction)

-Acknowledging male and female socialization as distinct experiences (even if a trans woman's childhood doesn't resemble "boyhood" it is not "girlhood;' it is something else entirely that is totally valid and deserving of respect and compassion)

-Being uncomfortable with penises and penis-talk in lesbian communities

-Being uninterested in dating someone with both male & female sex characteristics

-Talking about biological female experiences and anatomy

-Expressing any hesitancy about self-ID/worries that biological men will take advantage of it

So it's time to have a conversation. When ya'll talk about "punching TERFs" or other violence towards "TERFs," you are talking about people like me- an ally to trans people who wants to remain an ally, but is feeling incredibly alienated by the TRA movement which seeks to erase my sexuality by saying lesbians can be attracted to both sexes. Ls and Gs probably have a deeper innate understanding of why this is so painful for a homosexual person to hear. I am hoping to have a productive conversation with LGBTQ+ people on this subreddit to discuss this issue, and I ask that everyone approach the topic with empathy, care, and respect.

The lesbian who made this post got attacked, belittled, demeaned, and banned within an hour.

OP posts:
BeyondPink · 26/05/2018 12:47
Bowlofbabelfish · 26/05/2018 12:46

Ahhh.... so yes, you see it’s basically exactly the same dynamic as a woman gets when she refuses a man isn’t it? They don’t care if you dont want to fuck them except actually they do, and they demand youbdo too, regardless of your sexual preference or bodily autonomy.

You, as a woman, must always be available to men. Or it’s violence against them (or some such nonsense.) Lesbianism is a direct affront to men like this. Women saying no is a direct affront. They see it as violence and they think it justifies their violence in return.

TRA ideology is horribly homophobic. Women on this site have had quite enough of this, and enough of being nice and polite about it too.

Welcome on board. Sit down and have a cup of tea. :)

bakingdemon · 26/05/2018 12:44

Thank you for joining us @LostLesbian380 and so sorry you're dealing with all sorts of TRA bullshit. And as for that response "girlhood isn't womanhood" - yeah, but they're pretty damn closely linked. If you want to be a woman but were never a girl, what on Earth makes you think you can tell women how they should think? I hate these guys.

BeyondPink · 26/05/2018 12:43

AAK, I literally just posted "good luck" on a fb post saying she was running. I hadn't commented anywhere else about it and didn't have an openly GC fb at the time. I was literally like: Shock

Original poster
LostLesbian380 · 26/05/2018 12:43

Oh and to answer your question Bowlofbabelfish, I kept seeing "Mumsnet" in blog posts and Twitter. When I heard it allows "transphobia" I realized that that was code for "free speech" based on my experiences the past few weeks getting TERF-branded by misogynistic bullies, and realizing what people get called "transphobic" and "bigoted" for these days. It's ironic, because "bigoted" literally means "intolerant of other view points" and that's how they treat women!

OP posts:
Original poster
LostLesbian380 · 26/05/2018 12:40

Just got this awful reply, and I literally can't even respond because the moderator banned me:

"So "Talking about biological female experiences and anatomy" is something that must always be okay, but "Being uncomfortable with penises and penis-talk in lesbian communities". So cis lesbians are allowed to talk about their bodies and what they're into sexually, but trans lesbians better shut up about themselves basically. Sounds like you have a bunch of double standards you want to enforce, which isn't surprising since your claims of supporting trans women seem to be a figleaf for spouting a bunch of boilerplate transphobic rhetoric (lol at the idea that we're "targetting" lesbians, like really nice dogwhistle).

Really there's so much in your post, like yeah ik I didn't have a "girlhood" like it's part of my overall problem, but girlhood isn't womanhood which is what we're actually living as adults and it seems like you, and all terfs, want to ignore that particular commonality. Also lol at the idea that trans women apparently think there's no physical difference between trans and cis women, like why do these words exist then? IDK this is a stupid post you made, I don't really care if it's deleted here or not, but you are saying some hypocritical shit.

Also don't care if you or any other lesbian cares to fuck me, long as you aren't a massive transphobic dick about it."

This makes me want to throw up

OP posts:
Bowlofbabelfish · 26/05/2018 12:39

Welcome lostlesbian

You don’t need to be a brit or a Mum. Mumsnet is an amazing place. You are very welcome.

Can I be very nosey and ask how you heard of us? It’s really heartening to think that women in different countries are hearing we are somewhere women can talk without being shouted down.

I mean we get shouted AT, there are plenty of idiotic MRA trolls on here, but they generally get their arses handed to them ;)

nauticant · 26/05/2018 12:02

Welcome LostLesbian380. You don't need to be a mother and you don't need to be British. So long as you're willing to discuss things based on reality rather than quasi-religious feelings*, you'll have no problem joining in.

  • these are welcome too if they don't debate in plainly dishonest ways
Ereshkigal · 26/05/2018 12:01

Wow.

AngryAttackKittens · 26/05/2018 12:01

Another example - there was an election for a role in which a transwoman was running against a natal female. I wished the woman luck - genuinely thinking she was better for the role - and she blocked me and called me transphobic

Did you say anything about thinking she was better for the role on account of being female or is she herself just running around telling people that they should vote for her opponent instead of her in general?

BeyondPink · 26/05/2018 11:42

Another example - there was an election for a role in which a transwoman was running against a natal female. I wished the woman luck - genuinely thinking she was better for the role - and she blocked me and called me transphobic Confused

BeyondPink · 26/05/2018 11:39

(oh and I was blocked by the lgbt rep of a political party I was in - having never engaged directly with them. I am no longer in the party, funnily enough)

ErrolTheDragon · 26/05/2018 11:37

You are most welcome, LostLesbian. Glad I was wrong and you found us!

BeyondPink · 26/05/2018 11:37

Welcome lost, I'm glad you did know about mn then :)
Absolutely nothing hateful in your OP at all.

TerfAndSerf · 26/05/2018 11:28

I can't work out why the T is part of LGB either.

Sexuality is not sex or gender.

Sexuality is innate, sex is what you are born and gender is society enforced stereotyping which one incorporates into one's own personality.

Did I get that wrong?

Original poster
LostLesbian380 · 26/05/2018 11:22

So I am actually that OP. I didn’t acknowledge it in the first post because I wasn’t sure if I was supposed to be here as I’m not a mother or British, but I appreciate hearing that I’d be welcome here. I heard about this place as one of the only places women can still talk and so I came here.

OP posts:
BorchesterTowers · 26/05/2018 10:34

Not that there isn’t already clarity and compassion. But we can always do with more and I thought the post refuted the TERF slur really well

R0wantrees · 26/05/2018 10:20

Magdalen Berns
'Re: I'm Transphobic because I like Boobs & Vaginas':

James Kirkup:
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/the-silencing-of-the-lesbians/

BorchesterTowers · 26/05/2018 10:19

That is a fantastic post. Is the poster aware of here (FWR on MN)?

Given that the post has a number of references that sound American, she may not be. Can someone direct her here? We need her clarity and compassion.

She puts the case so clearly about how one can be gender critical and also a trans ally.

Wonderful stuff!

NotTerfNorCis · 26/05/2018 10:11

Why aren't gay men being bullied and excluded for not wanting relationships with female-bodied people?

ErrolTheDragon · 26/05/2018 09:48

MN isn't on the face of it an obvious home for transsexuals either, yet some seem to have found it to be a place they can post freely

gendercritter · 26/05/2018 09:47

The original post was articulate and fair. It made important points. I'm appalled that's how she was treated

Bowlofbabelfish · 26/05/2018 09:43

but presumably she isn't really gender critical.

After the ways she’s been treated there, maybe it’s the first step on the path. And yes, maybe MN isn’t the first natural home that would spring to mind for her but she’d be very welcome here. And no one would be banning her for such thoughtful considerate posts either.

ErrolTheDragon · 26/05/2018 09:39

It must be particularly tough for a liberal lesbian right now. Reddit has its gender critical board - but presumably she isn't really gender critical. A UK parenting site with a GC-leaning feminism board probably wouldn't even occur to her as a place where she wouldn't be silenced.

Kyanite · 26/05/2018 09:23

Excellent post and I really feel for the girl who posted it. The comments on Reddit smack of tribalism and the whole thing is very worrying.

Isn't it interesting how we don't see the same attacks on gay men and that gay men are happy to turn their back on lesbians to support trans ideology, when it also goes against their sexual orientation.

Lesbians are the main "villains" because autogynephiles mostly want lesbians to believe that they are lesbians too, so sexual rejection by them is the hardest to take.

This was written by a guy who is aware he has AGP and not gender dysphoria - "Because part of the paraphilia is being viewed as a “hot” woman with other women. That’s where the lesbian fantasies come from. There’s something alluring about being seen as desirable the way attractive women are seen, but we’re not gay so we don’t want men to see us that way."

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