Stephanie Davies-Arai. Transgender Trend

also from the Tavistock Clinic:

"Safety concerns remain regarding the impact of physical interventions. Although puberty suppression, cross-sex hormones and gender reassignment are generally considered safe treatments in the short term, the long-term effects regarding bone health and cardiovascular risks are still unknown"

and

"A Dutch research programme indicates that a treatment protocol including puberty suppression followed by cross-sex hormones and gender reassignment surgery, leads to improved psychological functioning in a selected group of transgender adolescents, who had persistent GD from childhood, lived in a supportive environment and had no serious co-morbidities."

From the Tavistock Clinic's "evidence base" page:

"Although hormone blockers and cross-sex hormone treatment are recommended in young people with GD and widely used across the board, it should be noted that the research evidence for the effectiveness of any particular treatment offered is still limited."

Ah at the deletion...

The post was a point regarding the ‘you can’t know unless you have lived experience and if you don’t have lived experience you aren’t allowed to speak’ thing.

The point being that by this logic if we must dismiss one group of people for apparently not having ‘lived experience’ then we must dismiss all groups who don’t have ‘lived experience’.

It ain’t what I believe... it’s the identifarian thinking, just pointing out it seems to be one rule for us and one for them...

FFS

I think that Lupron will be this generation of children's thalidomide.
Agreed, thebewilderness.

Everything you said Prawn, everything.
It is also bigpharma's freebie medical trials into the bargain.

I have said for a while now, for YW looking for a career - go into law - there will be many lawsuits in the future.

for well over a decade my work involved a constant awareness and understanding of medical ethics. One principle is that you only endanger a child's fertility if the situation is life and death. Cancer treatment, for example. The laissez-faire attitude of so many transactivist groups towards the medicalization of gender questioning kids is a genuine cause for concern.

This ^

I cannot, for the very life of me, understand how this is being allowed.

Thanks for posting, Posie.

Let’s not mention (how many?) people with zero experience of being female claiming to be female then...

That would violate the 8th rule.

I think that Lupron will be this generation of children's thalidomide.

There is a website of people who have suffered from the effects of puberty blockers. www.lupronvictimshub.com/

For most of us I think the concerns for children's welfare expressed by these women are every bit as important as the opinions of those who make a profit from experimenting on children.
Your dismissal of their concerns for these children is creepy.

You might be waiting a while, posie

Lobotomy, anyone? I hear it is most effective for treating depression, all the experts say so. Or at least they did.

Damnthatones, for well over a decade my work involved a constant awareness and understanding of medical ethics. One principle is that you only endanger a child's fertility if the situation is life and death. Cancer treatment, for example. The laissez-faire attitude of so many transactivist groups towards the medicalization of gender questioning kids is a genuine cause for concern.

There are fashions in medicine just as in other fields, and some of these fashions have caused significant harm. The most obvious is probably eugenics, but there have been a number of others. The current trans vogue fulfills the criteria for medical fashion. It arose very quickly, is unsupported by respectable research and yet has achieved almost universal acceptance. Voices urging caution are ignored or treated with contempt. When the bubble finally bursts a medical fashion usually ends as fast as it began.

In a decade or so the court hearings, the class actions are likely to start, cases from people whose healthy bodies have been damaged, who were sterilised as children. When that time comes, many of those now promoting trans ideology will claim that they always had their doubts.

So, men who have low testosterone levels in US are now suing due to side effects. How will cross sex hormones affect girls in the future?

Damn and Crisp. Believe me when I say I have done a lot of research on this topic.

The evidence base for the outcomes of cross sex hormones and surgery is weak, particularly for FtM. No one knows the long term outcome of puberty blockers because the treatment hasn't been around very long.

I can't access it now to post but I will later - the NHS service specification consultation document says the same thing.

Yes and they have no sexual feelings either. So will never enjoy a normal sex life.

I'm sure in the strange logic that is TRA, it is about validation. I still don't understand how having a group of 15/16/17 olds with prepubescent bodies and brain development validate anybody.

Damnthatonestakentryanother2 & crispbuttyfan

Have you watched the discussion? I'm genuinely curious.

Agree. I was really disturbed by the ‘breast binding’ info. It listed all the ways it was physically damaging - and the damage can be pretty severe - but said that reports of feeling more positive as a result outweighed the likely physical harm. Because the girls felt their bodies were being brought more in line with how they felt they should truly be. But anorexics and bulimics report feelings of happiness and achievement when they’ve hit low weights etc. Bulimics feel calm and happy after purging etc. But we wouldn’t use those feelings to justify not treating eating disorders, or facilitating them. I honestly don’t see the difference.

I am afraid not, Baroquehavoc.

I read a paper just yesterday saying that less than 15% of trans youths put on puberty blockers and/or cross sex hormones received fertility preservation counselling and less than 5% took up an offer of preserving eggs/sperm in case they ever want to have kids. (The reasons for this incredibly low uptake varied but at least in part it must have a lot to do with the lack of maturity in most youngsters which simply doesn't allow them to understand the far reaching consequences)

And that's not even counting the kids who are medically transitioning so early they never become fertile in the first place...

Starkstaring
So we need to listen to people who have experience of child development; of autism; of adolescent mental health not just those who think that any child who says they are trans is trans.
Absolutely 100% couldn't agree more.
Transgender Trend does not have that experience.

Those who do have that professional training, qualifications, expertise and experience, and the professional organisations that represent them almost unanimously regard the Transgender Trend approach as "unethical".

To find Mumsnet being used to promote an unethical treatment of vulnerable kids is, frankly, disgraceful.

There are very high stakes here - unknown effects of puberty blockers; unknown long term effects of testosterone on teenage girls; poor evidence of long term efficacy of surgery and cross sex hormones on mental health.
Not quite as "unknown* as you seem to be suggesting, but the research is on-going.
The evidence of long term efficacy of surgery and cross sex hormones on mental health is well established — and it is clear that the results are better in every respect if treatment is not unduly delayed.

Surely we owe it to these children to be very wary of these interventions and listen to all the arguments.
Yes, but perhaps giving less weight to arguments from ill-informed amateurs and rather more to the professional opinions of qualified experts.

The more and the younger the children they can declare as trans, the more they can persuade people that such a thing as an innate gender identity exists.

Baroquehavoc

It validates them and their ideology. I am sure that there are children out there deeply unhappy, I'm not sure that drugs where the long terms impacts on children are unknown or breast binders that damage tissue are the answer.

As a previous poster says how are we to know which children will grow out of this and which won't, the truth is we don't, but by then it could be too late.

I don't know why some TRA are so keen to trans children. Why they say puberty blockers and cross sex hormones are safe when they know nothing of the sort.

Women and girls have a long history of being let down by the medical profession, this is just another example. I sincerely hope that these children have someone genuinely on their side to keep them safe.

Excellent video.