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Original poster

Questions for TRAs or Transpeople on here

330 replies

Bloodmagic · 24/05/2018 11:01

Genuine question and I hope some of you will answer.

From my perspective, Gender Critical people (you would call us TERFs) want to accept you exactly as you are. Your sex (which you cannot change) and you personality, your fashion, mannerisms etc etc are all perfectly fine to us. We accept you as you are. We accept Transwomen as feminine men because that is exactly what you are. We accept Transmen as masculine women because that is what you are. We don't think there's anything shameful or degrading about that. Quite the opposite, we think it's pretty great. I think that men who identify as transwomen as a group should have: safety, freedom, political representation, political speech, suitable facilities (bathrooms, changerooms), inclusion in sports (co-ed, on teams of your own sex, or trans teams), free expression, happiness, the right to be around people like you and share experiences with them, organize with them, etc.

I don't think that has to come at the expense of the same rights for women.

Why is that such a terrible thing, in your eyes?

They only thing we won't do is lie for you, or prioritize your needs over our own.

How does it hurt you that we accept you exactly as we see you?

On the other hand, a lot of the people who claim to be trans supportive will not accept you as you are. Lily Madigan would not have been appointed to labor as a feminine man. They would not have accepted him as he is. They hate feminine men so much they demand that you hate yourselves and deny your reality before they will even let you be used as pawns in the Game of Patriarchy. Your self loathing is the only part of you that they value. It's the only part that I don't.

How many of your trans allies and supporters would still stand by you if you came out as a man who aspires to be as feminine as possible and understands that makes him no less a man and no less worthy than anyone else? They might not, but we would.

I'm having trouble understanding how you can look at us and see hate? We are the ones saying that everything you are is fine and perfect. We can't make you something you're not, no one can. But we also think you don't need to be anything other than exactly as you really are. What's so bad about that?

OP posts:
daimbars · 26/05/2018 08:34

Bloodmagic

You know you aren't your child's biological parent. Its important to record accurately some things and this is one of them. I see you as you are, a non biological but fully committed parent.

That's lovely and all but at the moment me and my wife both appear as 'parent' on my daughter's birth certificate. Are you really saying one of us should be removed and our anonymous sperm donor should be recorded as the parent instead in the name of accuracy?

If so then yes, I find that offensive and I think it's setting a very dangerous and backwards precedent for us as a country.

ReliefOfChaos · 26/05/2018 07:38

A heroic attempt to get the thread back on topic Blood, but just for the record this thread descended into pure hate about page 8 when they started calling Rat a pedophile.

Original poster
Bloodmagic · 26/05/2018 05:30

So just to get the thread back on track if anyone’s still here, the topic at hand is:

  1. If GC people are accepting and advocating for transpeople as they ARE (as feminine men/masculine women, with or without dysphoria) rather than as they would wish to be (for example, advocating for fair representation of transwomen as a category in politics, rather than transwoman being counted as women), does that hurt transgender people in any way? Either individually or as a group?
  1. If so, how?
  1. If it doesn’t hurt, how can transpeople change the conversation so that they are fighting for ADDITIONAL rights, recognition or provisions for transpeople as a group rather than usurping the rights, recognition and provisions of women, and how can GC women and men best support them in that?
OP posts:
Original poster
Bloodmagic · 26/05/2018 04:54

@Natluc

Sorry, I’m going through the comment thread and replying as I see stuff so please excuse me if I multipost/multitag you.

Trans people suffer dysphoria from being in the sexed body that is incongruant with their identity.

See, here’s the issue, that presupposes that it’s possible for a body to be incongruent with an identity.

I fully understand where this perspective comes from but I don’t believe that it’s true.

I was always a clever kid and I’m really into science and ‘boys’ stuff. Society tells me that women who do those things should have a specific body type – like Pauley Perrette or Michelle Rodriguez. Instead my body type is more like Rebel Wilson – who only plays the dumb funny characters. Did you ever see a woman like
Rebel Wilson playing an scientist or engineer when you were growing up? Or a 'getting shit done' type character like Linda Hamilton in terminator, or Sigourney Weaver in alien, or Charlize Theron in fury road? I felt that my body and personality didn’t “match” and since I don’t want to change my personality I must try to change my body or I would only over bepercieved as a funny sidekick rather than a smart and capable woman. Cue a decade or so of dysphoria and body loathing before I finally realized that people come as one whole package. It’s not possible for brains to not match bodies, they aren’t assembled separately. It’s only other people’s stupid limited ideas that made me think that way and made me unhappy. I didn’t need people to tell me that I was really ‘a thin girl in a fat girls body’ (which is literally a thing people say!) or to lie and tell me that I literally am and have always been a thin girl, I needed to know that I would be seen and respected as the person I AM regardless of my body.

So I KIND of get where 'you're a man' might be a little disheartening to hear in the same way someone telling me 'you're fat, stop trying to pretend you aren't' would've been upsetting. BUT someone telling me "You aren't a skinny, girl, you don't need to be. You are exactly as you are meant to be and have nothing to lie about, hide or apologize for. Don't diminish yourself to try and match other people's stupid limited expectations." How could ANYONE think that was hateful?

NatLuc, you aren't a woman. You're a man and that's just fine.You don't need to be a woman or 'be seen' as a woman. You don't need to be anything other than exactly what you are. Don't be afraid that people won't see the you inside your body. I see you, and I like what I see. I think you're smart, thoughtful, courageously vulnerable and empathetic. There's no mismatch, you are exactly as you are meant to be. You were made whole and there is no part of you that you need to remove, hide or apologize for. Especially not to fit with other peoples stupid limited expectations. Or even your own.

OP posts:
Original poster
Bloodmagic · 26/05/2018 04:21

@daimbars

Effectively the OP is saying 'we can't make you the child's mother, no one can, so you shouldn't be on the birth certificate or have any legal rights over the child. But why do you need to have that? We don't think you need to be a legal parent because biologically you're not. What's so bad about that?

Actually what I'm saying to lesbian mothers (and I am saying it right now to any lesbian mothers on this thread) is more like:

You know you aren't your child's biological parent. Its important to record accurately some things and this is one of them. I see you as you are, a non biological but fully committed parent. You should be entitled to legal protection as a non-biological parent the same as any other non-biological parent, and if you need special protections as a lesbian non-bio mother then I will help you fight for those as long as they don't undermine the existing rights of other people. I won't lie and pretend that a child can have two female biological parents for your comfort. I WILL fight for your acknowledgement and protection as a non-biological parent who is no less deserving of recognition than a bio-mother.

Are there any lesbians here who find that offensive and hateful? Genuinely asking

OP posts:
Original poster
Bloodmagic · 26/05/2018 04:14

Wow, you take a day off and come back to 250 responses!

Appreciate some of the side discussions here but if it’s not really related to the topic at hand, i.e. accepting transpeople as they are and legally protecting them on those grounds, can you please start a new thread? We’re drowning out the signal with noise.

@NatLuc

Thanks for your reply!

Male or Female I can accept, because as you stated - sex cannot be changed, but whilst GC proponents use male/female as synonymous with man/woman respectively, it acts as a language barrier when in open discourse with pro-trans people who do distinguish between them (I am saying pro-trans to be distinct from TRAs).

I think you must also accept that when GC people use the term women/men we are using it in the historical and currently commonly accepted definition of adult humans of the female/male sex.
You propose and prefer a different definition, which you absolutely can do, but you also have to understand that when GC people are talking about adult humans in this context male and man currently and historically mean the exact same thing.

Also, even if we were to change the definition of women/men so that transpeople could be referred to in their preferred category, we would still need words to describe the adult male ad adult female humans. For example, Borps and Plarps, respectively. We would still be saying that transwomen aren’t Plarps and shouldn’t be on the plarp-only shortlists or in the plarp changerooms. We would still say that transwomen are borps who are plarp-like in some ways.

I don’t see how that would help at all??

But to call me 'a feminine man', many find deeply insulting (not in this instance, just putting in to words the feeling it evokes) and at odds with some part of me that I cannot put in to words

Do you think that might be because our wider patriarchal society equates ‘feminine man’ and ‘failed man’? Or do you think it could be because in the English language the emphasis in ‘feminine man’ is placed on the ‘man’ rather than the ‘feminine’ which arguably has more impact on the way you exist in the world? I would agree in either case which is why transwoman is a very fine noun to use as long as we accept that transwomen are a subset of men not a subset of women.

My point in the post is that you understand that you’re an adult male, you know that the dictionary definition of man is simply adult male human, you know that GC women are not using it with an intent to limit your behavior or pass judgement, so why is it hurtful? I think there’s something under that to be discussed discovered.

OP posts:
Artemis7 · 26/05/2018 02:16

“I do see trans people as distinct in this way (neither woman nor man fully) because that is how they see themselves, and I’m listening (or trying to, when they’re being reasonable and not screaming “transphobia”) and responding to that. Identity is a difficult thing. You can’t dismiss an individual’s beliefs, and that cuts both ways.

I sincerely do not believe that is homophobic. Because it’s not sexuality at issue.“

I understand the reasoning behind that position, I disagree with it because things do not happen in a vacuum, do they. If men who are performing stereotypes are socially, referred to as women, even just because one wants to be polite. It has an effect on society as a whole, it enforces those stereotypes and makes them more rigid for everybody, this of course has a very negative impact on women and girls. It particularly has a negative impact on gays and lesbians (especially the young ones). This is because they often come to believe that if they like things typically associated with the opposite sex, it means they must actually be the opposite sex, and liking ones own sex is one of the biggest things associated with the opposite sex. For example, most people will immediately think men who perform femininity are gay, for exactly that reason; this is why many people are surprised when it is revealed many men actually have other motives, and are not gay at all. It is also why it is no coincidence that most children who are classified as trans actually grow up to be gays and lesbians if left alone. Therefore, going along with individuals delusions in order to be polite and respectful of their feelings/beliefs/identities can have unintended consequences, because society is made up of individuals, and how individuals act has an effect on society as a whole. So I believe that calling men women contributes to and enforces these sexist and homophobic stereotypes in society as a whole, and is particularly damaging for gay and lesbian young people.

rosylea · 26/05/2018 02:05

Cheers Wine Smile

AngryAttackKittens · 26/05/2018 01:00

No kidding, since it's the weekend Wine for Miranda Yardley.

rosylea · 26/05/2018 00:57

It must be difficult, frightening even, to stand up against the deplorable threatening behaviour of some of the tra's.

NoSquirrels · 26/05/2018 00:48

There was a good letter in the Times or Guardian a week or so ago, the signatories were trans people standing against the TRAs and pointing out the harm it was doing to try to appropriate and dismiss sex-based exemptions not campaign for trans rights on their own behalves. It’s hard, though / lots of trans people don’t want to be campaigners. But a vocal minority are setting the agenda.

rosylea · 26/05/2018 00:42

NoSquirrels, I understand what you're saying, I just want to see them working towards something positive. It's just crazy how it is at the moment.

NoSquirrels · 26/05/2018 00:34

rosylea I guess trans people would say it’s not workable to lobby for that - take sports, where the trans participants in each individual sport would be so low (statistically) that you’d not get workable teams, competition etc. Also the same argument for why “trans” is linked with LBG.

But the Paralympics is extremely successful at having a diversity of sports and sportspeople with various disabilities in categories that work to mitigate inequalities etc. And it’s wildly popular too. So I think a trans lobby for sport might be possible on that basis.

But if trans people want to be the opposite “thing” to the “thing” they were born as then it won’t happen. First, you’d need to be “trans and proud”. Which you can’t identify with if you identify as a woman/man.

This is why the whole thing is mad ... because vocal trans people who campaign on the basis of being trans simultaneously say they are not “trans” but woman/man.

rosylea · 26/05/2018 00:31

Have been reading the stories on one of the Irish vote threads. Some of the priests are unbelievable, disgusting.

NoSquirrels · 26/05/2018 00:26

This is what sets up an internal conflict, aka cognitive dissonance.

Absolutely. Which is why this is so difficult to discuss, and also why it is so damaging.

The religion/abortion debate is a very apt comparison, AAA.

rosylea · 26/05/2018 00:25

I still can't get my head around the fact that they are unable to organise their own petitions/lobbying for their own spaces/sports. Preferring to intrude into ours, shout and abuse us, having no care even for girls.

AngryAttackKittens · 26/05/2018 00:21

The best analogy for what TRAs are trying to do may actually be the abortion "debate" in the US or in Ireland, where religious people have consistently tried to impose their beliefs on the rest of the population, and often succeeded in doing so. If you believe that abortion is wrong then don't have one, but you shouldn't be allowed to decide whether other people do. If you believe that you have a gender identity that's at odds with your body then you have the right to hold that belief, but not to force other people to believe it too or to adjust their boundaries around nudity etc to accomodate your belief.

thebewilderness · 26/05/2018 00:21

I believe they do know they are “other” i.e. NOT women if they were born male. But they cannot admit this for whatever reason - so they were “born women”. Which we all agree is bonkers.

You can’t dismiss an individual’s beliefs, and that cuts both ways.

This is what sets up an internal conflict, aka cognitive dissonance.

NoSquirrels · 26/05/2018 00:12

Yes bewilderness I agree with you - they’re 100% not saying they feel like “feminine men” or “masculine women”. I’m using “other” to mean they feel something else - they feel as if something is ‘wrong’ and have given it the signifier of ‘wrong body/wrong sex’. I believe they do know they are “other” i.e. NOT women if they were born male. But they cannot admit this for whatever reason - so they were “born women”. Which we all agree is bonkers.

But I still think because identity is complex their should be a degree to which we accept people’s assertions about themselves- just not to enshrine those in law.

I’m happy that we have religious freedom. I deplore oppression in the name of religion or violence against believers. I don’t think anyone can dictate a person’s beliefs.

But if a religion tried to enshrine in law their belief, trampling on the rights of others in the process, and shouting about their oppression and hate speech against anyone who objected to be redefined in relation to their religion, then I’d have a problem with that.

spontaneousgiventime · 26/05/2018 00:06

AngryAttackKittens You mean Wombles aren't real? A bit like TIM's are real women then.

thebewilderness · 25/05/2018 23:58

But these people are saying they don’t feel like “feminine men” or “masculine women”. They feel something “other”, which for the most part, for whatever reason, manifests as wanting to be the opposite sex.

Maybe some. Most claim they have always known they were a woman and were born in the wrong body. That is what the claim of being born in the wrong body means. That they are women and have always known they were women and so are entitled to be treated as women despite their male body.

AngryAttackKittens · 25/05/2018 23:57

If Wimbledon Common has public toilets they can put a drawing of a womble on theirs.

spontaneousgiventime · 25/05/2018 23:49

AngryAttackKittens Good idea, at least in Oz they would have cute Koalas.

NoSquirrels · 25/05/2018 23:48

I would like to ask those who consider TIM as being less of a man or more of a woman. Do you also consider gay men as being more like women or as lesser men, or lesbians as being more like men or as lesser women? Or camp gay men and butch lesbians in particular? What about gay men who sometimes perform in drag are they lesser men? In all those instances people are just not performing the stereotypical roles, in one way or another. I think seeing a feminine man or a masculine woman as being less of their biological sex and more like the opposite sex, is actually very sexist and homophobic, even if that is not the intention.

I’ll answer for myself. No, I don’t see feminine men or camp gay men as lesser men, or butch lesbians as lesser women. But I do see trans people as distinct in this way (neither woman nor man fully) because that is how they see themselves, and I’m listening (or trying to, when they’re being reasonable and not screaming “transphobia”) and responding to that. Identity is a difficult thing. You can’t dismiss an individual’s beliefs, and that cuts both ways.

I think seeing a feminine man or a masculine woman as being less of their biological sex and more like the opposite sex, is actually very sexist and homophobic, even if that is not the intention.

But sexuality is not the thing at issue. It’s identity. I agree that sexist stereotypes benefit no one. But these people are saying they don’t feel like “feminine men” or “masculine women”. They feel something “other”, which for the most part, for whatever reason, manifests as wanting to be the opposite sex. Whether that’s innate or gender stereotypes or society or mental health is not the issue in terms of how it makes the individual feel to be “misgendered”. So as a social courtesy I consider them “women” or “men” whilst not really believing that to be true because I know you can’t deny biology and change sex. But I do think an individual trans person’s deeply held belief about themselves should be respected. Just not made law in all cases, because that’s mad.

Words matter. They matter legally (woman = member of biological class) but also socially (pronouns). For me personally, as long as the legal definition is upheld without any “biology is out-dated” bullshit, I’ll sign on to trans women are women (though in my head it’s more trans women are “women”).

I sincerely do not believe that is homophobic. Because it’s not sexuality at issue.

AngryAttackKittens · 25/05/2018 23:47

Maybe in Canada they can take the door sign from Bristol someone posted earlier and add a picture of a bear, just to be fully inclusive.