Questions for TRAs or Transpeople on here

We have to 'prove ourselves' to be taken seriously. That is why we try to conform to gender expectations that most of that sex take on themselves. Because by 'falling in line with the majority' this is how we can be seen to be 'trying hard enough'.

Essentially you have a vested interest in ensuring that gender stereotypes continue to thrive, and indeed become more entrenched in society. This is anti-woman.

Sorry everyone, my browser tab went weird and I had to try posting a few times. The times I thought didnt work clearly did..

If they are welcomed into those by the owners and proprietors

I get that. Wasn't it top shop who made that statement? But how many others have given express permission, how many organisations are shamed into changing policies. And how many women and girls who use what they consider to be sex segregated spaces, know that TIM can be present.

And how many individuals and organisations know that they can exclude TIM?

@Magpiesarehuge - I am sorry that you've been affected this way. I also agree that I like to think that I treat those as I would wish to be treated, which is with respect and the benefit of the doubt that they are a kind and good person.

Going about their business with no respect for the boundaries of women.

@LangCleg - I did not mean you personally, I meant in the sense of 'if one calls me he or a name befitting my sex' I just think it sounds pompous to type it that was an was trying to keep the tone casual. Sorry for the confusion!

I am not trying to appropriate your identity.. I understand that there are chasms of difference between trans women and women, I understand that you need rights and protection and that these are important.

Pride is probably the wrong word as I would rather not be trans. But yes, I am proud of who I am. I hold my head up high knowing how far I have come. How much I have gone through.

I'm sorry you find my struggle to be seen for what I should of been offensive I really am.

@RatRolyPoly - You can speak for me all you like, I'll soon tell you if I disagree haha. :p But exactly, women have all the evidence they need. Trans people are having to make the extra effort because all physical evidence of what we are claiming is not in our possession. We have to 'prove ourselves' to be taken seriously. That is why we try to conform to gender expectations that most of that sex take on themselves. Because by 'falling in line with the majority' this is how we can be seen to be 'trying hard enough'.

@Magpiesarehuge - I am sorry that you've been affected this way. I also agree that I like to think that I treat those as I would wish to be treated, which is with respect and the benefit of the doubt that they are a kind and good person.

just saying a normal transwoman going about their business and abiding by the rules placed upon them can't really be a TRA just because you wish the rules were different.

^

This

@LangCleg - I did not mean you personally, I meant in the sense of 'if one calls me he or a name befitting my sex' I just think it sounds pompous to type it that was an was trying to keep the tone casual. Sorry for the confusion!

I am not trying to appropriate your identity.. I understand that there are chasms of difference between trans women and women, I understand that you need rights and protection and that these are important.

Pride is probably the wrong word as I would rather not be trans. But yes, I am proud of who I am. I hold my head up high knowing how far I have come. How much I have gone through.

I'm sorry you find my struggle to be seen for what I should of been offensive I really am.

@RatRolyPoly - You can speak for me all you like, I'll soon tell you if I disagree haha. :p But exactly, women have all the evidence they need. Trans people are having to make the extra effort because all physical evidence of what we are claiming is not in our possession. We have to 'prove ourselves' to be taken seriously. That is why we try to conform to gender expectations that most of that sex take on themselves. Because by 'falling in line with the majority' this is how we can be seen to be 'trying hard enough'.

You know as well as I do that TIM use the word female to describe themselves as much as they use the word woman (MtF is used a lot). If all of the 'women' and 'ladies' signs were removed and replaced with 'female human' would TIM stay out?

It's a male person with no respect for the feelings, privacy and boundaries of women. Which is a red flag.

I'd say that going into sex segregated spaces as a TIM without a GRC is the actions of a TRA.

If they are welcomed into those by the owners and proprietors of those spaces I would say they couldn't be TRAs. TRAs would typically be agitating for new rights and accesses; if those rights of access are already there it would just be a normal person going about their business to utilise them.

Making no judgement as to whether or not the owners of those spaces have made the right decision btw, just saying a normal transwoman going about their business and abiding by the rules placed upon them can't really be a TRA just because you wish the rules were different.

I'd say that going into sex segregated spaces as a TIM without a GRC is the actions of a TRA.

But what does accepted as a women mean?

It means if I think I'm a woman, but you don't think I'm a woman, and I have to encourage you to advanced search my username to evidence my many years of posting about my c-sections and breastfeeding to convince you! Then I might be "accepted" by you as a woman - even though I knew I was one all along.

It's the same with transwomen but what they have to convince you is their visual presentation rather than their MN posting history.

adult human females no longer have a word to describe themselves.

Did you not manage to express what you meant in that last sentence?

“TRAs are doing people like me a disservice. They are poisoning the public against trans people instead of trying to foster a climate of understanding“

Totally agree. I’ve completely shifted my view from when i was totally accepting of TW as women, passionately argued for them and uttered the words “born in the wrong body” “have a female brain” etc. I’d like to think i treat each person as i find them but yes my view from following transfolk (even moderate reasonable nice TW) on likes of Twitter has made me generally negative.

My main point is that I think all of this unthinking inclusivity is harmful to every member of society, whether they currently believe that or not! It's a kind of Orwellian "Unthink", and it is happening right now!

All of the inclusivity I've encountered is far from unthinking. The fact that those doing that thinking don't reach the same conclusions as the FWR boards certainly says something, but I don't think it says that there aren't intelligent people doing an awful lot of thinking about all of this.

I don't mean to speak for NatLuc, but wouldn't the effort and struggle be in relation to being accepted as a woman, not to actually being a woman (in the sense of one's own identity)?

But what does accepted as a women mean?

From my perception, the outcome of acceptance leads to the definition of women changing to include some men, and that adult human females no longer have a word to describe themselves. That's not even taking into account the removal of needed sex segregation.

Are you sure you aren't simply not following? I did say I felt like Pooh Bear! But I meant that if I have to double think it to understand it then it isn't a string argument, maybe the poster hasn't thought it through fully, is working towards a more structured set of thoughts.

My main point is that I think all of this unthinking inclusivity is harmful to every member of society, whether they currently believe that or not! It's a kind of Orwellian "Unthink", and it is happening right now!

jellyfrizz the current GRA uses both terms to mean the same thing. I agree that is confusing.

But, honestly, some of these posters seem to be arguing against themselves, changing stance mid sentence and, frankly, reading as one big, well meaning, muddle.

Are you sure you aren't simply not following?

You wrote of the ‘effort and struggle’ to gain acceptance as a woman. What did you mean by this? It suggests that being a woman is something to achieve. And if there are females who aren’t doing those things, are they not women?

I don't mean to speak for NatLuc, but wouldn't the effort and struggle be in relation to being accepted as a woman, not to actually being a woman (in the sense of one's own identity)?

And that a non-feminine woman does not have that same struggle on account of their bodily hardware being evidence enough for most people to accept them as a woman, whereas a transwoman - typically lacking that hardware - needs to make the additional efforts of slotting into a system of stereotypes to compensate, and to be accepted as a woman on that basis.

I know a lot of people think the GRA should be abolished so trans people cannot legally change their gender.

No one cares about people’s gender. It’s suggesting you can change sex that people do not agree with.

All about perspective, calling a transwoman a man is also insulting. But quite right, its not about unlocking an achievement or levelling up. But at the end of the day, I can't stop you referring to me he instead of she

It's not about bloody perspective. It's about material reality and women having the right to claim it and assert the right to define themselves. You talking about effort and struggle is absolutely inimical to that.

I don't call you a man and neither do I call you he, so please don't suggest that I do. I accept that trans identified male people are trying to escape manhood. I accept that physical transition is the embodiment of that. However, it doesn't make you a woman. It makes you trans. Be trans. Be proud of it. Have my blessing and support for that. Just don't appropriate me and my material reality or describe that appropriation as a deserved reward for effort and struggle. I find it deeply, foundationally, offensive.

@jellyfrizz - Trans people suffer dysphoria from being in the sexed body that is incongruant with their identity. As such we do everything to relieve that dysphoria. That is the effort and struggle I am referring to, doing everything possible to have the world see them as they should have been.

I touched on this in an earlier post, or maybe it was in another thread about how clothes and haircuts and makeup (or lack of) or hormones and surgery are tools that trans people use to achieve the relief of their dysphoria. It is our bodies we are at odds with, not the presentation of our gender.

To refer to a trans person using pronouns or names befitting our birth sex undermines the effort we go to, to relieve that pain.

This morning I fell a lot like Pooh Bear...

... intellectually I know that if what is posted doesn't make sense, and the poster seems to be tying themselves up in knots to make their point then the point is not strong enough to be made.

But, honestly, some of these posters seem to be arguing against themselves, changing stance mid sentence and, frankly, reading as one big, well meaning, muddle.

Why are we women tying ourselves up in such knots? The bottom line is that sex is not gender and the rights and protections of women are being diluted, overlooked, torn down, by the current social more of inclusivity, apparently at all costs!

It isn't about sharing loos with men in dresses, we have been doing that for decades. It is about the actual physiological being of "woman" being diminished to "Not Man", as has already happened. If that becomes a global reality it will NOT mean global parity, it will mean 100 years of women's activism will disappear in puff of blue smoke. NEVER to be regained!

I'm taking my Very Little Brain out to work... not sulking, if I don't reply to anyone

I cannot see how calling a transwoman a woman could suggest non feminine conforming females are not women?

You wrote of the ‘effort and struggle’ to gain acceptance as a woman. What did you mean by this? It suggests that being a woman is something to achieve. And if there are females who aren’t doing those things, are they not women?