I believe The Spectator is in danger of folding.

SlothSlothSloth So in the main we agree? Good, there's a start. Allowing men into women's spaces will make a lot of the things we both agree we want impossible. Therefore I won't bow to the alter of Labour or Corbyn, it's not going to happen.

I read all kinds of publications and will continue to do so. My message to you is simple. I don't appreciate being lectured not going to say loathe again as I mistyped it first time about what I read, subscribe to, support etc. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't appreciate me telling you what to do either.

I note that there was no acknowledgement in that manifesto of the intersectionality of austerity cuts as they impacted on women, especially mothers.

Right, but who made those cuts in the first place? Agree that labour and the left generally is misogynistic and full of bros. I just think the misogyny of the right is far worse and history has shown us that time and time again. Sometimes you have to pick the least bad option. I’m not a labour supporter, by the way. I’m just talking about making voting decisions based on the broad track record of left v right when it comes to feminist issues, rather than focusing on self-ID alone.

Sorry not sorry - SewSwiftly - if that's directed at my post.

But I feel completely and utterly betrayed and failed by the Labour Party - who I have voted for for the past 25+ years.

Think this has peak GC-ed me.

Ok. Alternatively, you could have an opinion? Do you think the left wing parties are offering any of the policies that do benefit women? If so, what are the policies and which parties?

Remember, women = adult human female.

I'm interested in welfare and other social policy, particularly as it impacts on women. I note that the Labour manifesto committed 4x the money to the middle class student population than it did to replacing cuts to benefits.

YY. It's not just self ID I'm pissed off at Labour for.

I want equality for women in pay, jobs, childcare and in society as a whole. I want to see women in top jobs, not relegated to carers, cleaners, housewives and nursemaids.

We want the same things but wanting them isn’t enough. You have to also vote for parties more likely to deliver these things, or at least less likely to obstruct them. Personally I think some of the policies most likely to deliver liberation for women would include things like:

-universal free childcare
-funding for children’s services especially in deprived areas (but this is currently being stripped back massively - see how the conservatives have gutted surestart)
-more funding (and more secure funding) for women’s services such as rape crisis services and women’s refuges
-universal basic income, preventing vulnerable women from becoming dependent on men or prostitution for money
-Nordic model for prostitution
-Compulsory paternity leave of a reasonable length, and an ability to split parental leave between partners
-Offering flexible working options to be made compulsory for employers
-self-ID to be abandoned
-universal credit and child benefit cap to be abandoned

To my mind these are all left-wing policies, with the exception of self-ID. Certainly no party offers all or even most of these policies, but left-wing parties (by this I mean anyone from Labour; Greens; even the WEP etc - I’m not a Labour supporter myself) are far more likely to support these kind of measures. I just don’t understand the contradiction in saying you want equality for women but then voting for a party that has a track record of offering anything but.

What policies do you feel would bring about equality for women, and are the Tories offering these? I don’t mean to “hector” you but I just don’t understand.

Think this has peak GC-ed me.

other people are allowed to point out the hypocrisy of claiming to hold a feminist position while voting for parties that are, overall, appalling for women.

Like Labour, you mean? And the Libdems, and the Green Party.

I've been left-leaning all my life - but all this misogynistic crap from lefty-dude-bros, labour women's officers getting women expelled from the party, antifa stopping women's freedom of assembly in masks, and people on here telling me I have to ignore the biggest threat to women's rights in a fucking century is just pissing me off so much. I'll probably join the conservatives just to piss you all off. At least they've had women leaders.

The Spectator isn’t going to fold. It is really good, broad journalism though.

The reason it publishes James Kirkup is because the Spectator and it’s journos have actual critical facilities (as does Helen Lewis, New Statesman) and will listen and evaluate the argument. The Spectator also has plenty of female subscribers.

FWIW, I know that they were offered an article supporting Men-Only Golf/Social clubs a couple of years back and turned it down. It isn’t just trans issues that they support women on.

I would be interested to hear what other feminist issues apart from self-ID you consider important.

I'm interested in welfare and other social policy, particularly as it impacts on women. I note that the Labour manifesto committed 4x the money to the middle class student population than it did to replacing cuts to benefits. I note that there was no acknowledgement in that manifesto of the intersectionality of austerity cuts as they impacted on women, especially mothers. And I say this as someone who was still a Labour member at the time of the election and who knocked on doors supporting it.

I think self-ID - in cultural context eg Guide policy as well as legislative context - should be the priority for women.

Oh they’re fucked already? Brilliant.

Do you actually know how much worse things have gotten since the coalition government for the groups I’ve mentioned? How many people in the U.K. have died of malnutrition?

But hey, they’re fucked already so never mind.

As I would think this goes without saying but just incase I'm jumped on. I want women to have free autonomy over their bodies, free from violence and fear. I want to see a society where women and girls are safe to walk the streets, use leisure facilities all in complete safety.

I will also be spoiling my ballot paper since there is no viable alternative for feminists.

FWIW - I pay for the FT because it actually concentrates on data-driven journalism, despite it being a right of centre publication and me being a left wing voter. I've also donated to the Morning Star on a couple of occasions!

SlothSlothSloth Interesting you pick on me because I don't agree with your hectoring of people on this thread. I want equality for women in pay, jobs, childcare and in society as a whole. I want to see women in top jobs, not relegated to carers, cleaners, housewives and nursemaids.

My daughter phoned me today, I've posted about it, she was called into work today, her supposed day off, her husband works full time too. She is overwhelmed with childcare, housework, laundry and having to operate at full strength at work. I want women to be able to make the choices that suit them and have help and support in doing it not just left to get on with it. Her hubby helps but long hours and commute don't leave much time. Fairness, equality, justice and support is what I want.

How does your feminism stack up Sloth seeing as you asked me.

You can’t honestly think that all parties are equally bad for women. Is there no difference then between, say, the DUP and Labour?

Honestly, I will spoil my vote unless one of them actually stands up for women. Never done that before. They are all as bad as each other.

Spontaneous, I would be interested to hear what other feminist issues apart from self-ID you consider important.

TERF I actually agree that all options are appalling but there are degrees. You can’t honestly think that all parties are equally bad for women. Is there no difference then between, say, the DUP and Labour?

I planned on voting Conservative in the local elections, we ended up with an independent so I voted for them instead. What a wicked woman to even consider voting Tory. Labour are a shambles and laughing stock at the moment.

Indeed, people are allowed to vote for whoever they want, and other people are allowed to point out the hypocrisy of claiming to hold a feminist position while voting for parties that are, overall, appalling for women.

They are all appalling for women. That is the point.

deathgrip THANK YOU. Much more succinct than me.

You’d fuck the NHS, single mothers, the disabled, the poor etc etc over self-ID? That’s the most short sighted and depressing thing I’ve ever heard.

They are fucked already. If you think Labour are going to solve any of these issues, particularly for women, then you are the short sighted one.

Indeed, people are allowed to vote for whoever they want, and other people are allowed to point out the hypocrisy of claiming to hold a feminist position while voting for parties that are, overall, appalling for women.

I'd vote for anyone doing something to avoid against this - no matter what the other policies.

Really? You’d fuck the NHS, single mothers, the disabled, the poor etc etc over self-ID? That’s the most short sighted and depressing thing I’ve ever heard.

Some posters here would probably vote for them, given the chance.

Well, people are allowed to vote for whoever they want - you do know that don't you?

You are free to do what you want with your own money, spontaneous.