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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Guess how I got suspended from the Labour Party?

811 replies

IAmDavidLewis · 22/05/2018 23:17

Well, one of the weirdest days in my life concluded with me receiving a letter informing me of my immediate suspension from the Labour Party. They believe I may have breached the rules by subverting the intention of All Women Shortlists, Women’s Officers or minimum quotas for women. Unfortunately, this does mean that my political ambitions are on hold for a while. I shall of course be continuing to self-identify as a woman every Wednesday, as that is my gender identity...

I have to say a huge thanks to @namechangeah for all her help, guidance and, more importantly, proof-reading! I wouldn’t have gotten to this point without it. I’d also like to thank everyone for their support today. I hope this has helped a bit.

And the Telegraph called me an “activist”! Achievement unlocked Grin

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NotARegularPenguin · 24/05/2018 09:05

I emailed them a few times but they never replied.

speakingwoman · 24/05/2018 09:05

Question:

presumably one can be in favour of the proposed self-ID regime which involves making a statutory declaration but also in favour of David's action which has served to highlight Labour's utter lack of, and indeed disapproval of, safeguarding?

Labour is ahead, not only of the current law, but even of the proposed law, I think....

Supermatch? others?

ChattyLion · 24/05/2018 08:50

Eresh it just defies comprehension.
One other thing about GRA- it at least tries to recognise this as a pretty fucking important step that is reserved for adults, people aged over 18. Kids and teenagers can’t get it and that to me is a GOOD thing at an age range where its completely normal, healthy and expected to have identity questions and be exploring.

speakingwoman · 24/05/2018 08:49

Penguin, that's shocking.

What did you say back? Or did you run out of time to devote to these halfwits at that point?

"My students union said I wasn't welcome at a women in leadership event which in the blurb said was for self identifying women and trans women. I said I didn't self identify as a woman but was a woman and could I come and was basically told to go away."

Ereshkigal · 24/05/2018 08:42

Good post Chatty. They really are ridiculous.

ChattyLion · 24/05/2018 08:39

Bloody hell. Apologies for the rant but I just feel i’ve wandered into some weird dystopia and just can’t fathom it..

NotARegularPenguin · 24/05/2018 08:39

My students union said I wasn't welcome at a women in leadership event which in the blurb said was for self identifying women and trans women. I said I didn't self identify as a woman but was a woman and could I come and was basically told to go away.

ChattyLion · 24/05/2018 08:36

I am so incredulous at Labour I feel I need to rehearse this scenario in case I missed something.

Under Labour party rules, (brought in without proper debate with its members, and over which many female Labour members have resigned), self identifying as such is enough to qualify ‘as a man’ or ‘as a woman’ for Labour party purposes.

Self ID means THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE between person A who self identified as a woman to get themselves on the candidate list for woman’s officer (who then gets suspended by the party as a member for his trouble) and person B who stood in the same way and was elected as a local party woman’s officer.

Anyone who supports trans people being recognised as their chosen sex legally, as a formalised way of treating their choices and feelings with dignity, should also be opposed to self identification because it is a completely, inherently flippant concept.

SELF IDENTIFICATION is exactly that. It doesn’t need any distinction or justification of whether you genuinely feel that you are of your chosen gender or chosen sex (or if you just want to live as/present yourself as such) ...

self ID can’t validate whether you have felt that way for 2 seconds, or gone to lengths to live as the opposite sex (or as neither sex/both sexes at the same time) for 2 years or for 20 years.

Self ID requires zero modification of anything- dress, clothes, manner, bodily appearance- that wasn’t there before the magic self ID statement was uttered or written on the application form.

Self ID doesn’t allow anyone to distinguish if you are just taking the piss... or if you just want to get into the women’s toilets so that you can get off on listening to them piss... or worse.
With self ID it’s all on an exactly equal footing.

Anyone can just say the magic words at any time (and can change their mind as many times and as often as they want, over time).

With legal self ID (which is not the law in the UK- but the government might consult on making it so Hmm) the self IDer can be legally RECOGNISED and legally PROTECTED as a man or as a woman just because they say they are.

Anyway back to the Labour Party. Party Rules are party rules and self ID is Labour’s chosen rule. They have said that anyone who identifies as a woman, can be recognised as a woman and thus can stand and hold party office as a woman. Taking us roles reserved for women.
I would assume that this rule also applies to any trans officer roles that the party offers since those would logically also be based on self ID?

Allowing Anyone who IDs themselves as whatever, to ‘be’ that for party purposes, can only mean.... literally anyone.

I don’t understand then, the basis on which Labour thinks that anyone but David Lewis himself, can question what David Lewis self-identifies as?

What is great for public debate in what David Lewis has done, (...noting that DL and the #ManFriday people seem to be the only self-identifying people who do support public debate..Hmm.) is that David Lewis is apparently doing this to highlight this debate.

This means he is maybe a bit less likely to kick off at anyone who questions if DL is really a woman. DL may be a bit less likely to call them ‘transphobic’ for questioning the self identification DL chooses, with serious ramifications for the ‘transphobic’ labelled person’s personal life and career.

DL may be less likely to hound them, make them feel unsafe, try to get them kicked out of the Labour party (Er... instead of David Lewis having been suspended by Labour...).

We are all able to talk, laugh and debate this freely and speculate about DL’s motives ONLY because we think from what he has said in an interview to the Spectator, that DL is trying to make a gender critical point.

BUT we only know that from his interview. Nobody could have known it from his woman’s officer application form which was accepted by Labour. His application confirmed with their self ID rules.

We cant really know that he won’t do that stuff ^ with any certainty, because I can’t look into DL’s mind. under self ID, David Lewis certainly could do all that authoritarian silencing behaviour above if he wanted to... and what could the Labour Party do to stop it? Nothing. Because Self ID is self ID^. And it seems we are being increasingly told to treat it as if it were legally binding.

Labour are choosing to effectively recognise self ID within the party as if it were legal self ID. Self ID and the current process for certification which allows people to change legal gender on their documents (under the Gender Recognition Act) are two different things.

Under Labour’s own rule of self ID, David Lewis has as much right to stand for election as woman’s officer, trans officer, as any other person who wants to stand as a woman’s officer.

But David Lewis is now being prevented from that and has been suspended from the party. Why?

Is there a secret extra or new clause in ‘self ID’ that DL somehow violated that we don’t know about? That has never been applied to other candidates before now? What would that be? Why can’t they tell us?

Self ID is dangerous, tokenistic, virtue signalling numbskullery and David Lewis has only ever gone along with its rules.

All those objecting (hello, Labour Party officials who suspended DL!) should be looking to critique their party’s own misogynistic non- democratic rulemaking and Labours blatant lack of concern for women’s issues and representation.

Labour should be ashamed of themselves for not listening to the very, very many women (and men) who have been pointing this out for months. There is nothing new or against their rules that DL has done.

PS none of this is to say that there is anything wrong or unusual in feeling that gender is bullshit, nor in living as a ‘masculine’ woman or as a ‘feminine’ man or living as someone who just doesn’t buy into gender at all. Gender is a made up way of enforcing a hierarchy between sexes, universally used to keep women down at the bottom because our biology makes us usually relatively smaller, weaker and we are able to bear children.

I just think the law, the state, political party structures etc should not be required to recognise and validate flippant, transient feelings on the same level as they also recognise biological reality.

Sex and biology is real and means we need legal recognition and protections around our sex to deal with the reality of different needs and to protect people from the social inequalities caused by gender stereotyping.

(Dysmorphia is real too and needs proper support from a qualified psychologists and doctors.)

The GRA is imperfect but it aims to weed out those with flippant feelings and to accommodate people who have made a serious commitment to live as the opposite sex. GRA allows them to change their legal sex on their personal legal documentation and involves some objective discussion with doctors etc), and puts in a requirement that they have lived ‘as’ the opposite sex for a couple of years. It was brought in back when same sex marriage wasn’t allowed, and civil partnership had not been brought in for same sex couples.

I just don’t get what Labour are complaining that David Lewis has done wrong?

TERFragetteCity · 24/05/2018 08:36

Yes and LM also said that you couldn't identify as something you weren't.

Abolissimo · 24/05/2018 08:32

James Kirkup wrote a great article on his blog at The Observer validating David's approach and explaining how Labour can't have it both ways. A must-read. blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/the-catch-22-of-labours-gender-policy/

TerfsUp · 24/05/2018 08:22

Didnt LM say they had schizophrenia?

Yes. LM also claimed to be autistic.

TERFragetteCity · 24/05/2018 08:17

Yes, the only people who can't be women's officers are women who just are women, and who don't identify as such.

Weird that. The only people who can stand for women's officer are men and women who identify as women (who don't usually identify as women as they just are women).

FermatsTheorem · 24/05/2018 08:11

Terfing - someone asked LM this if memory serves me right, and LM's answer was that a person who identified as a woman was in, but a woman who said she refused to "identify as a woman" on the grounds that there was no "identifying" about the process, she simply was a woman would be ruled out.

Pratchet · 24/05/2018 07:44

Sorry quad: you are right

Terfing · 24/05/2018 07:38

Does this mean, however, that only those who fully identify as women can be women's officers? Thus, any women's officer who is not a cardboard cutout of ladylikeness will also need to be suspended? Presumably so?!

Terfing · 24/05/2018 07:35

Ironically, David has done more for women in Labour than Lily Madigan, Eddie Izard, Owen Jones and the rest of the self-identified spokespeople for Labour!

merrymouse · 24/05/2018 07:32

Neither you, nor Bunce would actually fit any of those criteria either way.

Re: David, there are no criteria. If this hadn’t been all over the national press, there is no reason to assume that his application would have failed on the basis of not being a woman. There might have been another better candidate, but that is not the same thing.

It really isn’t clear that Bunce wouldn’t be eligible because he only identifies as a woman sometimes.

I’m not sure whether you are implying that he isn’t really trans but he was in Parliament the other day talking about trans issues.

NotARegularPenguin · 24/05/2018 07:26

What’s david’s Twitter handle please?

ErrolTheDragon · 24/05/2018 07:23

Limited sharing of times articles is allowed, and Janice turner is usually worth reading in full - some of the other sections in today's comment piece may be of interest though not directly relevant to this thread

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-mask-slips-from-friendly-facebook-cskpdrdv5?shareToken=90cb896b91c7e13ba8cb2769add5db27

NotARegularPenguin · 24/05/2018 07:22

LM has been claiming to have a GRC before LM could legally have had one so I take everything LM says with a pinch of salt. Afaik you have to have been living as a woman (?) for 2 years as an adult so would need to be 20. LM was claiming at 19 to have one, and then when challenged said it’s illegal and transphobic to be asked to provide their GRC anyway.

QuoadUltra · 24/05/2018 07:01

Please don’t cut and paste stuff from behind paywalls. These good journalists need to get paid.

Starkstaring · 24/05/2018 06:58

Full text of Janice Turner's comment in The Times

Bearded lady
Poor David Lewis won’t now be women’s officer of Basingstoke Labour Party. At first he was allowed to stand but now his membership has been suspended, though it’s hard to see why. He merely followed party rules that holding this post only requires that a person “identifies” as a woman. Which is what Lewis does, although only on Wednesdays. “I make no changes in my appearance,” he said. “I keep my name and my male pronouns. I wear the same clothes, I keep my beard. I enjoy the full womanness of my beard.”

Under “self-identity” — a principle trans activists wish to enshrine in law — a man is a woman on his say-so alone; to challenge someone’s gender identity is transphobic. And yet this is what the Labour Party has done. As a friend points out, it’s odd that women aren’t allowed to decide who isn’t a woman, yet trans activists can decide who isn’t trans.

Mamaryllis · 24/05/2018 06:54

SMG are you actually our Lils? You both seem to believe you are the only one that gets to rule who is a woman and who isn’t. Most alarming.

TERFragetteCity · 24/05/2018 06:38

I am properly imaging a cage of rats on people's heads while everyone talks about thoughtcrime. It could not be more 1984;

I saw a young woman on the tube on Tuesday reading 1984. People are taking more interest because this really is a batshit crazy world we are inhabiting.

MrsTerryPratchett · 24/05/2018 06:09

I am properly imaging a cage of rats on people's heads while everyone talks about thoughtcrime. It could not be more 1984; trying to work out people's true beliefs and basing entire systems on them.

Thank you David. Flowers

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