Class analysis...

Sorry meant you commit a crime if you lie about facts relating to a crime or lie under oath. Perverting the course of justice/ perjury

Statistically women as a class are responsible for nearly all false rape accusations. Is it your job to change their behaviour?

So uncomfortable with this collective responsibility thing.

QuentinSummers

Ok, so although men as a class do most violence AND men as a class have most power, so most ability to change things, men can't be expected to try to change things as its discriminatory to expect them to
We are fucked then

That isn't what is being said. No one has denied most violence is committed by men. Having identified that it is for individual men to behave better. But what this idea of some sort of vague , hive mind collective responsibility is supposed to achieve is puzzling.

Did I say your children had a full understanding of class analysis

No but what I’m saying is that may children aren’t even close to conducting class based analysis. But the seven year old understands what racism is.

You can understand an ism without conducting class based analysis (which is not me saying bin class based analysis by the way, I’ve said it’s useful many times).

Did I say your children had a full understanding of class analysis?

If a child understood why plants need light to grow they would have some understanding of photosynthesis wouldn’t they?

Or is this very much a thing where if you don’t fully understand something you don’t understand it at all? I can see the logic in applying that to adults but childhood is inherently a process of learning isn’t it?

"And when a complete stranger who happens to share my sex, my race, my social class, or my tennis club does something wrong, am I culpable if I do or say nothing?"
If he or she commits a crime then yes, in law you are

No you are not culpable in law. UK anyway. There is no duty to report a crime far less step into prevent one happening. There are a few exceptions.

You commit a crime if you lie about facts known to you.

Parents and guardians commit a crime if they fail to prevent harm to children.

Anyone subject to financial services regulation has a duty to report suspected money laundering. Failure to do so is a crime.

Well then yes, I would say they both understand the principles of class analysis. They might not fully understand it but they have a level of understanding there don’t they

I think you are lowering the bar as to what constitutes class analysis to a ridiculous extent and rendering it meaningless. Like saying someone has a full understanding of photosynthesis just because they know plants need light to grow.

I believe that there is much that men as individuals can-and should- do to change the behaviour of other individual men. Which will improve society as a whole.

Are women responsible for correcting the behaviour of other women?

Statistically women as a class are responsible for nearly all false rape accusations. Is it your job to change their behaviour?

It feels like two different principles are getting confused here.

It's wrong to hold all Muslims responsible for Islamic terrorism, but it could be right to argue that Islamic terrorists more likely to be influenced away from terrorism by fellow Muslims than by others.

Likewise, it's wrong to hold all men responsible for male violence, but it could be right to argue that violent men are more likely to be influenced away from violence by other men.

So class based analysis is wrong because by doing class based analysis We will ensure that class based discrimination will stay the same or grow rather than wither away to nothing? And we are pointing out that classes exist which is discrimination in itself?

Firstly, classes are blinking obvious to people so we can't wish them away. The classes exist. What matters is behaviours around those classes. Babies recognise same and different to mummy skin colour very early on. They equate same as safe.

I think it more likely that without class based analysis , class based discrimination will continue or grow. I think now that gay people are properly recognised as a class that is discriminated against, their lives have improved as a result. I don't believe that they would have the rights and respect that they have in the uk today if they had not been recognised as suffering from class based discrimination, and actions taken accordingly

I don't think pointing out classes exist is in itself discrimination. I think making generalisations or taking action based on class is discrimination wherever the action has a negative effect on any class

further, It is not really discriminating against men by having an AWS if that list is simply putting women where they would have been if discrimination had not already taken place.

I call it all out.

But I, as a white middle-class woman, am often not listened to.

Yeah, but it’s not a mirror image is it if you are, like Bertrand is, saying she accepts collective responsibility and men should too.

You don’t have to agree with that^.

People are free to believe in individual responsibility.

But your example was not an example of collective responsibility (the idea everyone shares responsibility) it was an example of prejudice (one person from a group is like x so all people from that group are like x).

And when a complete stranger who happens to share my sex, my race, my social class, or my tennis club does something wrong, am I culpable if I do or say nothing?"
If he or she commits a crime then yes, in law you are

What law is that then?

Thing is MRAs seem to apply collective responsibility to women as a group whilst believing that men have only individual responsibility.

Thereby showing themselves hypocrites and wrong in principle. But to act as a mirror image of the MRAs is no less hypocritical or lacking in principle.

Well then yes, I would say they both understand the principles of class analysis. They might not fully understand it but they have a level of understanding there don’t they?

Thing is MRAs seem to apply collective responsibility to women as a group whilst believing that men have only individual responsibility.

No, your child, if he hasn’t understood racism can get his head around person a saying something mean to person b

He understood the motivation. That this mean thing was said because of the colour of his friends skin. I’m not saying my four year old fully understand racism. But he understood that act.

My seven year old has a much better grasp. She’s not capable of class analysis either.

Yes, based on an idea of collective responsibility. If someone believes only in individual responsibility they would never consider someone else’s behaviour/words as anything to do with them.

I don’t think that’s a child thing TBH. There are plenty of adults who can get their heads around person a saying something mean to person b without understanding ‘isms’.

Once again I have not made myself clear. I believe that there is much that men as individuals can-and should- do to change the behaviour of other individual men. Which will improve society as a whole

But that’s individual behaviour (impacting others).

No, your child, if he hasn’t understood racism can get his head around person a saying something mean to person b.

Not necessarily. Was the wrong racism? Did your son say ‘that’s racist!’ Or did he say ‘that’s wrong

My sons 4. He said that’s wrong. Child A said something nasty to child B. I got a 4 year olds version but it was something like “they said child B shouldn’t be here”

Basically my point is a 4 year old can get their head round racism but they have no capacity to conduct class analysis.

I think you are being a little broad with the definition of what class analysis is. It suggests to me something a little more broad than “treating someone differently because of X is wrong” - oh look I just did class analysis.

Not necessarily. Was the wrong racism? Did your son say ‘that’s racist!’ Or did he say ‘that’s wrong!’?

Things can be identified as wrong without them being seen as racism. Seeing them as racism is the class analysis because the reason why it is wrong is because it’s prejudice against a whole group of people.

The media do that do they? Or is it MRA commenters on the bottom of online articles?

That’s an example of cultural sexism re the belief that ‘women lie and manipulate men’ hence one woman becomes ‘all women’.

It is in no way comparable (it is the reverse actually) to the fact that men are overwhelmingly responsible for the vast majority of violence across the globe and people popping up like whack-a-mole saying ‘but NAMALT’

If men overwhelmingly suffer from a preventable disease people don’t pop up saying ‘but NAMALT’ do they? When we know from stats that men suffer more accidental deaths at work but nobody pops up saying ‘but NAMALT’ do they?

There is a reason why people say NAMALT to certain things but not others...