Class analysis...

So yes, it may seem ridiculous to talk about poor men in northern England as "privileged" but the chances are that even these men have "unearned privilege" or at least an expectation of it as they probably have a mother or a wife who washes their pants and makes their dinner

You don’t spend much time in deprived northern towns do you beach

I gathered! Obviously no-one is required to believe in collective responsibility. I think most people do to some extent though. Certainly on certain issues. People are also quite inconsistent I think. I definitely think most people believe some things are a collective responsibility and others are individual responsibilities.

Yes cold, that’s the point. When people do ‘but NAMALT’ they are having a ‘different response

I don’t like class anaylsis based collective responsibility.

I think you make a good point here about culture. Of course most men have less influence over culture than you would think. Discussions about any kind of group responsibility for actions makes me exceptionally wary.

It’s simply that culturally men are not expected to have any responsibility and women are for this issue despite women having virtually no control over the culture of masculinity or the behaviour of men

So gross generalisations against huge groups of people are OK as long as there is evidence to support them? That's not the way political discourse has developed over the last few decades, certainly on the left, so it's a novel point of view, at least.

Hahahaha you have tickled me.
Saying something evidence based about a class of anything (including people) is describing some objective facts, not a "gross generalisation". It is a key basis of the scientific method, not a "novel viewpoint"

Political discourse on the left has absolutely fuck all to do with it, unless you are owen jones?

All forms all the time and never do anything else and only men?

Are you always so black and white?

Oh and unearned privilege is also the reason for ubiquitous things like manspreading, mansplaining, men dominating conversation, men thinking they can ask women they don't know to "smile" or interact with them, men pestering women for sex, men with children doing hobbies that take up huge amounts of time, men not being the ones that make things like Christmas happen, etc, etc.

If someone is punching someone wouldn’t it be better to call the police?

Of course. But I've got the impression that it's all forms of aggression/sexism that men are supposed to challenge. Still very likely to result in a kicking for said person.

Feminists often talk about "unearned privilege" when they talk about class. I think it is a useful term, especially as the notion of privilege has been hijacked by identity politics.

Unearned privilege is the reason why there are disproportionate numbers of men in positions of power and mediocre men in high flying jobs being supported by a wife and a female PA. Unearned privilege is also the reason why men as a class do not do their fair share of housework and child care.

So yes, it may seem ridiculous to talk about poor men in northern England as "privileged" but the chances are that even these men have "unearned privilege" or at least an expectation of it as they probably have a mother or a wife who washes their pants and makes their dinner. They also probably get to be a parent whilst doing less than their fair share of parenting because a woman will be doing the heavy lifting of parenting.

This is what feminists mean when they talk about men as a class having privilege. It doesn't mean they are all privileged in the general sense of the word. It means they get paid more, get better jobs, have more power, have more freedom, etc than their female counterparts and most likely have a woman in their lives doing wife work.

It also means that they are much more likely to use prostitutes than be prostituted, to abuse their partner than be abused, to see themselves portrayed in popular culture and the media as having control, power and status than as powerless or as a victim, etc, etc.

It is still very much a man's world and that is what unearned privilege means.

If someone is punching someone wouldn’t it be better to call the police?

Yes cold, that’s the point. When people do ‘but NAMALT’ they are having a ‘different response’.

I think what Henbane is saying is that calling out a violent man when he punches another man is likely to change that mans behaviour. But not for the better, he’ll just kick the shit out of you too.

Now, someone might not believe in collective responsibility at all but it’s a bit of a leap to suggest that what Bertrand is suggesting is that it is only men and not anybody else that is responsible for calling it out

So belonging to class Y or X or Z shouldn’t impact your responses. What we need is everyone behaving as decent human beings. Sounds very sensible.

That’s less of a ‘why should they?’ And more of a ‘why should anyone?’

You see it’s just another individual vs collective responsibility divide.

Ah. I struggle to see why it isn't. Because it's not just actual violence-it's all the concomitant "male culture" stuff that make life unpleasant for all women and many men. Why would you not want to do something that makes life better for everyone?

Well why should they? Calling out a stranger in the pub for violent attitudes/tendencies against women is likely to result in said non violent man being filled in. And to do that on behalf of another group with no direct benefit to their self seems rather stupid to me.

Now, someone might not believe in collective responsibility at all but it’s a bit of a leap to suggest that what Bertrand is suggesting is that it is only men and not anybody else that is responsible for calling it out.

Fair enough, I was reading it as Bertrand suggesting it's all down to men.

Is anyone actually saying ‘just because of genitalia?’

Or is Bertrand saying ‘women are not responsible for calling this out by themselves, men are also responsible and I view men who witness other men being violent/sexism and don’t do or say anything to challenge it are part of the problem’

Because she believes in collective responsibility...

Now, someone might not believe in collective responsibility at all but it’s a bit of a leap to suggest that what Bertrand is suggesting is that it is only men and not anybody else that is responsible for calling it out.

It’s simply that culturally men are not expected to have any responsibility and women are for this issue despite women having virtually no control over the culture of masculinity or the behaviour of men.

Oh it took me so long to type that that bertrand posted again

I think my post is already in agreement with the last post though

If my friend (who by the way...wouldnt be my friend) made a comment over coffee that it was a ok to falsely accuse someone of rape, i would absolutely tell her where to get off

In the same way as when my friends talk about 'muslims' or 'travellers' or 'black people' in a derogatory manner, or rape myths or 'women being bitches'

If these people put their words into action fuck me yeah i would grass them up

So when i see people argue that as a white woman i should 'stop' these things...i assume thats what they mean

Or rather i hope thats what they mean

Let's try another example. Class analysis shows us that women as a class take the brunt of caring responsibilities (both for childcare and other family-related care such as elder care) and are economically disadvantaged as a class because of it. This is a factual analysis - no value judgement in it; it is simply true.

My value judgement from this factual class analysis is that society is set up in an unjust way that disadvantages women because I feel care labour has equal social value to economic labour that adds to GDP. I therefore support any policies or campaigns that will support women with unpaid caring responsibilities through cash transfers and services, even though it will not benefit me (as an individual member of the class woman) because I have no caring responsbilities.

The value judgement of other women may be to regard the class analysis as irrelevant because they believe the taking on of caring responsibilities is a matter of personal choice and not for social policy to either support or discourage. Thus the evidence of the class analysis is not something an ideological individualist has any use for.

Class analysis is just a tool. Not a value judgement

Well, yes. But as the number of such cases are vanishingly small, I am unlikely to be called upon to put my money where my mouth is. Maybe pick something more likely to happen?

Is collective responsibility dependant on frequency then?

The idea I struggle with is why it is the job of any non violent male to call out/stand against other males who are violent just because they share the same genitalia.

No I know. But children understand things relative to their development. Understanding that racism exists and being able to identify it relies on having a developmentally appropriate understanding of the principles of class analysis doesn’t it?

When a child has a developmentally appropriate reading ability we don’t say that they ‘can’t read’ and saying they can read is ‘reducing reading to such a point that the idea of reading is meaningless’... because they are children... the standards for understanding are adjusted based on expected development.

Maybe pick something more likely to happen

Extremist terror.

It’s the principle of the thing for me though.